Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Navy_Pete]

The reality is that there is so much to replace over the next 15yrs - Subs, Coast Guard, Kingston Class - that Irving's Halifax operations and Seaspans's operations are too small and over-booked to handle all of the upcoming replacements.  Our choices will be 3 fold - do nothing (always a leading option here in Canada), use Davie or go overseas.  Regarding the Subs being replaced in 15yrs, we'll never build them here since we don't have any desire to add that expertise internally, so we'll end up buying Brit or French subs, whether used or new.  Regarding the Coast Guard ships and the Kingston replacements, Davie is the only yard with the size/volume/expertise left in which to build them.  I highly doubt we'll go overseas for any of it.

MCDVs can actually be built at a lot of shipyards as they are pretty small, and they would be pretty competitive as ships in that tonnage are their bread and butter, so if it was an open competition there are a lot of yards that could win it aside from Davie, and the GoC may want to spread the love anyway.

Subs are pretty specialized, and if you look to Australia, there are some great comparisons with the Collins class sub on why it's a terrible idea for Canada to try and build them here.  Aside from the Brits or French, there is also other good options for import, like some of the German subs.  Don't know if the US would ever export them, but their crewing model is nuts anyway, so probably a non starter.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

BC Ferries just released an expression in interest for 5 ferries to replace the C class (139m , 6969 DWT) likely go overseas though as little capacity here on the West Coast.

 

[Dale Denton]

So with the gap between AOPS and CSC, is it almost guaranteed that they'll be another 1 or 2 AOPS to built? What else could be shoehorned into that gap that needs work? Half-fleet quick MCDV refit?

The reality is that there is so much to replace over the next 15yrs - Subs, Coast Guard, Kingston Class - that Irving's Halifax operations and Seaspans's operations are too small and over-booked to handle all of the upcoming replacements.  Our choices will be 3 fold - do nothing (always a leading option here in Canada), use Davie or go overseas.  Regarding the Subs being replaced in 15yrs, we'll never build them here since we don't have any desire to add that expertise internally, so we'll end up buying Brit or French subs, whether used or new.  Regarding the Coast Guard ships and the Kingston replacements, Davie is the only yard with the size/volume/expertise left in which to build them.  I highly doubt we'll go overseas for any of it.

I agree, but this is also a positive in a way too.

What is our capacity to have new classes/ships every year? How long does it take to retrain?

I think its much better for the industry, and a perfect time too. Knowing that there's almost guaranteed govt work for the next 25 years as most of the RCN and CCG fleets need big refits or complete replacement already. Even if the MCDV replacement/refit project was complete, theres nothing industry could do for years anyways.

 

[Swampbuggy]

So with the gap between AOPS and CSC, is it almost guaranteed that they'll be another 1 or 2 AOPS to built? What else could be shoehorned into that gap that needs work? Half-fleet quick MCDV refit?

Are we absolutely past the point of no return WRT the “gap”?

Or is there still a chance we could pick a ship early next year and then start cutting steel by end of 2022?

I’m not opposed to a couple more AOPS, 7-8 may even be enough to retire a few MCDV’s sooner rather than later.

 

[AirDet]

I’m not opposed to a couple more AOPS, 7-8 may even be enough to retire a few MCDV’s sooner rather than later.

Was the intent to use the AOPS to replace the MCDV's. I hadn't heard that before. Those 2 ships may have similar abilities but they also have significant differences.

What is the plan to replace the MCDV's?

 

[Swampbuggy]

Was the intent to use the AOPS to replace the MCDV's. I hadn't heard that before. Those 2 ships may have similar abilities but they also have significant differences.

What is the plan to replace the MCDV's?

I was under the impression that was the original plan. The AOPS would eventually replace the MCDV, if I’m sufficient numbers. But, it was scaled back from 8 to 5 or 6 vessels. So there was the recent study to determine if the lifespan of the MCDV could be extended for 5-15 years. As it stands now, the MCDV is to be used in conjunction with the AOPS for an indeterminate period of time, according to VADM Lloyd. But, I think if ISI got green lit to build a couple more, the RCN might revisit that plan and maybe divest some of the KINGSTON fleet.

 

[CBH99]

That seems like a bad idea, replacing MCDV with AOPS?  KINGSTON class are pretty versatile little ships - surely they are far easier to man & cheaper to operate than the big AOPS will be?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Beef up the armament and defense suite for the AOPS, use the MCDV fitted with the current main gun destined for the AOPS for domestic, US and Caribbean ops. The AOP's do the oversea stuff, like Africa, piracy patrols, RimPac, Asia, along with the Arctic.

 

[Swampbuggy]

That seems like a bad idea, replacing MCDV with AOPS?  KINGSTON class are pretty versatile little ships - surely they are far easier to man & cheaper to operate than the big AOPS will be?

Definitely the MCDV is cheaper. But, why no mention of it or it’s replacement looking ahead into the next 2 decades? It’s one area that SSE has been conspicuously short on info about.

At any rate, I wouldn’t want to see them all retired, even were we to receive another 2 AOPS for an total of 8. I think there’s sense in refitting 6 of them as MCM vessels with new mine warfare kit and posting a squadron on both Southern coasts.

The remainder could be either divested or repurposed as Diving Support vessels or Ocean tugs ( just spitballing here) or sent to the CCG as a combo FishPat/Hydrographic survey ship. With less taskings and a good refit, maybe there’s a lot of life for MCDV’s in lower tempo operations?

This line of thinking is only really due to no suitable replacement on the horizon for a vessel of this nature.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Replacing the MCDV is so easy, there is likely a dozen yards in the country that could build them. Take the lessons learned from them, keeping in mind the AOP's coming on line, pick a size and series of missions for them, including minimum crew and maximum crew/passenger. Find a existing design that comes close, tweak it a bit and start building replacements 2-3 ships a year, by 2023. 

 

[Swampbuggy]

Replacing the MCDV is so easy, there is likely a dozen yards in the country that could build them. Take the lessons learned from them, keeping in mind the AOP's coming on line, pick a size and series of missions for them, including minimum crew and maximum crew/passenger. Find a existing design that comes close, tweak it a bit and start building replacements 2-3 ships a year, by 2023.

Yes. But, is the political will there to do it? You could have 6-8 quick, simple and amply armed ships (something like an Armidale for ex) to supplement the other classes and stay at home, for a relatively low amount of money. But somebody up top has to want it. Were I Davie, I think that would be my tack, since building them wouldn’t be cutting anybody else’s grass, under the NSS. Jobs, votes, not undermining ISI or VSS... seems like a no brainer, but it hasn’t been on anybody’s radar.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's easy so they ignore it till it becomes a crisis, because that is how we do things in Canada.

 

[Swampbuggy]

It's easy so they ignore it till it becomes a crisis, because that is how we do things in Canada.

I guess the worry then, is if anybody will actually see the end of the MCDV’s as a crisis. By that, I mean, nobody outside of the RCN or chat groups like this one, know what that type of vessel brings to the table. So, if ultimately John Q Public and the government see a half dozen AOPS and 15 CSC, will anybody “important” even realize anything is missing once the KINGSTONs go?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I fear you have correctly assessed the likely scenario. The MCDV are an excellent stepping stone for young Captains and Officers, not to mention P.O.'s

 

[Underway]

Was the intent to use the AOPS to replace the MCDV's. I hadn't heard that before. Those 2 ships may have similar abilities but they also have significant differences.

Leadmark 2050 and the Defence Policy don't seem to plan on replacing the MCDV's with the AOPS.  Like you said there are significant differences largest of which is the cost and crew outlay.  MCDV's are in particular really excellent on the West Coast and Caribbean. 

What is the plan to replace the MCDV's?

There isn't one.  IMHO the priority should be on replacing the subs well before the MCDV's. 

I guess the worry then, is if anybody will actually see the end of the MCDV’s as a crisis. By that, I mean, nobody outside of the RCN or chat groups like this one, know what that type of vessel brings to the table. So, if ultimately John Q Public and the government see a half dozen AOPS and 15 CSC, will anybody “important” even realize anything is missing once the KINGSTONs go?

Is losing them a crisis if their jobs are taken over by other ships?

Honestly I have no idea, time will tell once the AOPS are online.  The MCDV's are moving past their halcyon days.  With AOPS on the way taking over some of those jobs and the frigates finished FELEX (essentially) they don't have to plug gaps like they used to.  Also with the JSS, AOPS and CSC on the horizon no matter how distant there will be a crunch for bodies to sail.  The fleet will go from 24 surface ships to 31+ ships even before the CSC start hitting the water.  I can easily see MCDV's being the first platforms to be pillaged for people.  I see the most likely end of the MCDV's coming from personnel issues, even before the ships get too old.

The other option I see is a consolidation of the MCDV fleet into less hulls and a refocus on Mine Warfare/ route survey.  Getting them to really do the job they were originally envisioned to do.  I have seen a shift in the Reg F navy's awareness of mine warfare since it became their responsibility.  The ships, as stated here before, are in pretty good shape so they are expected to last a while.

 

[Cloud Cover]

A mine counter measures capability is a key capability for a serious Navy. It would be folly to discard this asset and a serious miscalculation to think AOPS can perform that task.  And, the cost is not prohibitve to refresh that capability and the ships sometime in the future. The MCDV can cede the patrol and seamanship training function to AOPS, and revert to a specialized role, even if the number of ships are less than 12.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Leadmark 2050 and the Defence Policy don't seem to plan on replacing the MCDV's with the AOPS.  Like you said there are significant differences largest of which is the cost and crew outlay.  MCDV's are in particular really excellent on the West Coast and Caribbean. 

There isn't one.  IMHO the priority should be on replacing the subs well before the MCDV's. 

Is losing them a crisis if their jobs are taken over by other ships?

Honestly I have no idea, time will tell once the AOPS are online.  The MCDV's are moving past their halcyon days.  With AOPS on the way taking over some of those jobs and the frigates finished FELEX (essentially) they don't have to plug gaps like they used to.  Also with the JSS, AOPS and CSC on the horizon no matter how distant there will be a crunch for bodies to sail.  The fleet will go from 24 surface ships to 31+ ships even before the CSC start hitting the water.  I can easily see MCDV's being the first platforms to be pillaged for people.  I see the most likely end of the MCDV's coming from personnel issues, even before the ships get too old.

The other option I see is a consolidation of the MCDV fleet into less hulls and a refocus on Mine Warfare/ route survey.  Getting them to really do the job they were originally envisioned to do.  I have seen a shift in the Reg F navy's awareness of mine warfare since it became their responsibility.  The ships, as stated here before, are in pretty good shape so they are expected to last a while.

This whole post is excellent. I agree with everything you are saying, with just one reservation. Certainly if there are vessels that can perform the same tasks the MCDV has been doing, then of course it isn’t really a crisis. But, by the time all the CSC arrive, the MCDVS will likely be gone. With the re-focus on task groups, and up to 4 CSC in said groups, that stretches what can be covered by a fleet of 21 vessels. That’s assuming the RCN keeps up with OP CARIBBE etc...whilst upping their patrol time in the Arctic. In the early to mid 2030’s is when the cupboard starts to look bare. I know there’s time to address it, but maybe by banging out AOPS 7 and 8 they put off that potential “crisis” and allow the MCDV to fulfill its original mandate, while extending its life.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Leadmark 2050 and the Defence Policy don't seem to plan on replacing the MCDV's with the AOPS.  Like you said there are significant differences largest of which is the cost and crew outlay.  MCDV's are in particular really excellent on the West Coast and Caribbean. 

There isn't one.  IMHO the priority should be on replacing the subs well before the MCDV's. 

Is losing them a crisis if their jobs are taken over by other ships?

Honestly I have no idea, time will tell once the AOPS are online.  The MCDV's are moving past their halcyon days.  With AOPS on the way taking over some of those jobs and the frigates finished FELEX (essentially) they don't have to plug gaps like they used to.  Also with the JSS, AOPS and CSC on the horizon no matter how distant there will be a crunch for bodies to sail.  The fleet will go from 24 surface ships to 31+ ships even before the CSC start hitting the water.  I can easily see MCDV's being the first platforms to be pillaged for people.  I see the most likely end of the MCDV's coming from personnel issues, even before the ships get too old.

The other option I see is a consolidation of the MCDV fleet into less hulls and a refocus on Mine Warfare/ route survey.  Getting them to really do the job they were originally envisioned to do.  I have seen a shift in the Reg F navy's awareness of mine warfare since it became their responsibility.  The ships, as stated here before, are in pretty good shape so they are expected to last a while.

This whole post is excellent. I agree with everything you are saying, with just one reservation. Certainly if there are vessels that can perform the same tasks the MCDV has been doing, then of course it isn’t really a crisis. But, by the time all the CSC arrive, the MCDVS will likely be gone. With the re-focus on task groups, and up to 4 CSC in said groups, that stretches what can be covered by a fleet of 21 vessels. That’s assuming the RCN keeps up with OP CARIBBE etc...whilst upping their patrol time in the Arctic. In the early to mid 2030’s is when the cupboard starts to look bare. I know there’s time to address it, but maybe by banging out AOPS 7 and 8 they put off that potential “crisis” and allow the MCDV to fulfill its original mandate, while extending its life.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Maybe, just maybe, this article might lead to us selling the Kiwi's  a pair of AOPS?

Navy vessel came close to capsize in Southern Ocean, Defence Minister Ron Mark says

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12084397

 

[Dale Denton]

Wasn't there a post from someone here about Kiwi interest in it? They have plans on procuring one I remember reading in a NZDF White Paper or Policy.

Here's a thought, maybe we could fill the supposed gap between the AOPS and CSC with actual international orders. At least this order wouldn't be to somewhere controversial...