Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I always thought they sent the wrong MCDV for that one. The honour obviously should have been kept for HMCS GLACE BAY  ;D.

Also, they were up in Kane Basin at the top of Baffin Bay, an area that now clears of ice at the end of the summer/beginning of fall up to somewhere between 81 and 82 degrees North. Still lots of dangerous things floating in the area, but not "in" ice. The AOPS will actually be going into the ice and staying up there longer than the MCDV's or FFH.

Nevertheless, SHAWINIGAN 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect the first few trips into the ice will be in the company of a CCG Ice Breaker

 

[Underway]

I suspect the first few trips into the ice will be in the company of a CCG Ice Breaker

Probably not wrong on that, also there might be a need for them in the Gulf of St. Laurence during sealing season.  Actually the Gulf up to Quebec city could be a good shakeout ice testing ground.  It's first year ice, and you're close to home with lots of help in case something goes wrong.

Considering what could go wrong in the Arctic, there is great need for the 6 hull techs that the AOPS has listed for their manning. I would imagine along with well equipped workshops on the the AOPS, there will be contractors possibly flying into Nanisivik eventually to work on the ship. I also want to point out the provision on the manning for a MET TECH, a senior steward, Chief Clerk and 3 cooks. From the manning some trades are going to be working bodies again, not supervisors much like a MCDV. The manning also doesn't take into account training bunks eiher or how many reserves that will be employed on them. I would imagine though that the manning will be adjusted over time as well.

Whats the CSE complement?  Same as MCDV with one WEng Tech or more robust?

And, yet, it was an lightly (dare I say "inadequately?") crewed MCDV that made it to 80o28' N, not a larger warship. (In fairness, I believe the FFHs are even less "ice capable" than the MMs.) I can imagine that the Captain and the Chief Engineer had pretty tight sphincter muscles the whole way, imagining what could go wrong, but ...

Interestingly enough FFH's have an Arctic Class  that is type E vs MCDV's which are type D.  Arctic Class is a classification system that is primarily based on Arctic Shipping Pollution Prevention Regulations and include Ice Strengthening requirements, special bunkering, upper deck fittings, fire mains, exhaust, propulsion, etc....  Type A would be thick first year ice and Type E would be no ice at all.
I've seen photos of MCDV's breaking through 2"-3" estuary ice on the West Coast in late fall.

Polar Class is based almost entirely on an ability to negotiate ice, and the classification system goes much higher than thick first year ice...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Long time since I read up on it, but ice classification is different for river and ocean as well. River icebreakers were traditionally built with longitudinal strength in mind and ocean for lateral strength to resist being crushed by ice movement.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Where on god's green earth was that??? I have never seen ice on the West Coast of Canada, not even on the coldest winter day.

In any event  two to three inches of just formed ice is nothing and I would expect any ship to go through that, FFH included.

Now six to 8 inches in Bedford basin in Halifax, that used to prevent any of the DDH's or DDE's from being able to go to the ammo jetty, and if absolutely necessary, then they would call on the Gate Vessels to open the way (The GV's were rated for up to two feet of ice - the last armoured hulls in the Navy).

I remember one week in February, circa 1988-89, we took the two GV out for a week and, on the last Friday evening, pulled into Shelburne for a one day visit. Temperature turned very cold, wind came in from the sea and on Saturday afternoon the whole bay was in six inches of ice and all the local fisherman, with their wooden boats, were trapped. In mid afternoon, we started our engines, and I guess the word spread around quickly because all the fishing crew came running down to their boats, and as we left, they all followed tucked in our wake, where we had basically cleared the ice. The buffer asked me if he should acquire some bright red paint for the hull.  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Camsull got sliced in the Western Arctic. We do get the occasional ice on the Fraser and in small harbours where a layer of fresh water is on top of the salt. That thin layer of ice can be deadly to wooden recreational craft as it can saw through the hull in a night. We had a bright spark in a Avon Sea Rider attempt to break that type of ice....... : He spent a good chunk of the patrol repairing the tubes.

 

[Underway]

Where on god's green earth was that??? I have never seen ice on the West Coast of Canada, not even on the coldest winter day.

It was a trip up to Anchorage Alaska.  I'm not sure if it was Queen Charlottes or they were in Alaska by then as it was years ago, so perhaps not in Canada at all!  Essentially the fresh water from the river froze over top of the salt oceanic water.  Fresh water ice is also more brittle than sea ice so aside from a bit of a crunching noise it was no issue, even for ice getting into intakes.  It made for some beautiful pictures in a unique circumstance.

 

[Stoker]

Probably not wrong on that, also there might be a need for them in the Gulf of St. Laurence during sealing season.  Actually the Gulf up to Quebec city could be a good shakeout ice testing ground.  It's first year ice, and you're close to home with lots of help in case something goes wrong.

Whats the CSE complement?  Same as MCDV with one WEng Tech or more robust?
Interestingly enough FFH's have an Arctic Class  that is type E vs MCDV's which are type D.  Arctic Class is a classification system that is primarily based on Arctic Shipping Pollution Prevention Regulations and include Ice Strengthening requirements, special bunkering, upper deck fittings, fire mains, exhaust, propulsion, etc....  Type A would be thick first year ice and Type E would be no ice at all.
I've seen photos of MCDV's breaking through 2"-3" estuary ice on the West Coast in late fall.

Polar Class is based almost entirely on an ability to negotiate ice, and the classification system goes much higher than thick first year ice...

Five WENGS for AOPS.  I have broken some ice in a MCDV, however very unnerving knowing the ships capabilities. I would imagine the first deployment for AOPS will try and do a transit of the Passage much like HMCS Labrador did.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

In the Western Arctic, fine. I don't consider that the West Coast of Canada even if Canadian ships deploying there come from the West Coast.

Similarly, icing in bays/estuaries in Alaska, starting about 60-70 NM North of Ketchikan, is frequent in winter. But I don't consider that the West Coast of Canada.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Are they serious Chief? Five WEng for a single 25 mm main gun and two .50 cal's? Or are they expecting to carry torps at all times or add a CWIS on top of the hangar?

 

[Stoker]

Are they serious Chief? Five WEng for a single 25 mm main gun and two .50 cal's? Or are they expecting to carry torps at all times or add a CWIS on top of the hangar?

That's straight from the AOPS presentation I have. There are a lot of electronics on the ship and I would imagine quite a bit of first line maintenance will need to be done.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Is there that much more electronics than on the MCDV's?

They have the same number and general class of radars as MCDV's, I suspect there may be some redundancies on the radios side, but still not that much more than what is found on the MCDV's. Probably about the same amount of navigation electronics. Perhaps a few more "ops" consoles and an electro-optical system of sorts, but that is about it. I could be wrong, but I get a feeling they will end up doing a lot more seamanship than practicing their trade.  :nod:

 

[Stoker]

Is there that much more electronics than on the MCDV's?

They have the same number and general class of radars as MCDV's, I suspect there may be some redundancies on the radios side, but still not that much more than what is found on the MCDV's. Probably about the same amount of navigation electronics. Perhaps a few more "ops" consoles and an electro-optical system of sorts, but that is about it. I could be wrong, but I get a feeling they will end up doing a lot more seamanship than practicing their trade.  :nod:

There is a lot and like you mentioned redundancies for the radios and so forth. There is lots more ops consoles in a proper ops room and also all the bridge equipment as well. I would imagine several of WENGS to look after the gun and most likely one of them will be the Mag Yeoman as well. You also must keep in mind that these numbers may change as time goes on.

 

[Cronicbny]

Taken in April 2009 in Tracy Arm, AK. The Sawyer Glacier is pictured, which, for the sake of interest originates in Canada.

It was all first year ice - varying from slush at the start to 4-6" elsewhere.

 

[Kirkhill]

Any chance they could make like the Norwegians and split that crew of 65 into 3 divisions?  Only two divisions are on board at any one time.  The divisions rotate in and out for long patrols.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Taken in April 2009 in Tracy Arm, AK. The Sawyer Glacier is pictured, which, for the sake of interest originates in Canada.

It was all first year ice - varying from slush at the start to 4-6" elsewhere.

And for the sake of clarity: It is the glacier that originates in Canada, not the Arm, which is entirely in the US and, coinciding with my earlier observation, is about 240 nautical Miles North of Ketchikan.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Great pictures and my opinion of the MCDV's went up another notch

 

[Cronicbny]

And for the sake of clarity: It is the glacier that originates in Canada, not the Arm, which is entirely in the US and, coinciding with my earlier observation, is about 240 nautical Miles North of Ketchikan.

Yes, I posted to agree with you, not to bring your statement into disrepute.

 

[Stoker]

Great pictures and my opinion of the MCDV's went up another notch

Great to see we have the CCG approval ;D

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Should we start painting the hulls red?  ;D