All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)

[OldSolduer]

I'm not even really sure.  The memo stopped half way up the chain.  The QL3 course director put a minute on the memo not recommending approval, and it was given back to me.

That's BS - it should have been forwarded to the Commandant, or the RSM. NOT the course director.

 

[LoKe]

I'm going to try and deal with this properly on my own end and see what recourse there is, rather than dropping names and ranks and make this a bigger issue than it is.  The biggest confusion that I have is that the memo is dressed to the Tp WO.  I see two minutes on the memo, one recommending from an instructor, and one not recommending from the course director.  I thought there had to be a minute from the Tp WO denying it outright.

I'll redress it to the school commandant and see what happens.  I doubt it'll even make it back up the chain.

 

[Occam]

The Tp WO does NOT have the authority to grant or deny permission to cease shaving.  Only the CO/Commandant (as the case may be) has the authority to grant or deny the request.  Now, it's entirely possible that the CO/Commandant of CFCSE may have delegated this authority, but I'll bet you my next paycheque that he didn't delegate it to the WO level.  I'm guessing the course director is below the Tp WO?

CFSCE Standing Orders should have a "Dress" section which I'm sure deals with the procedures for cease shaving requests, and your memo should have been addressed to whoever can grant that request.  The memo will hit various personnel on the way up, and they can only recommend or not recommend, but they can't block the correspondence.

 

[LoKe]

I was told from my staff to dress it up to the Tp WO when I asked.  I'll redress it to the proper authority and find out what the result is.

 

[Occam]

I was told from my staff to dress it up to the Tp WO when I asked.  I'll redress it to the proper authority and find out what the result is.

I'm betting your staff was too lazy to look it up.  I'll look at the CFSCE Standing Orders for you tomorrow and post back here what I find out.  Then you'll have a reference to back yourself up.

 

[LoKe]

Thanks, I appreciate any assistance that could help me handle this in a proper way.

 

[ModlrMike]

I'm not even really sure.  The memo stopped half way up the chain.  The QL3 course director put a minute on the memo not recommending approval, and it was given back to me.

Inappropriate! Dress is the purview of the CO as advised by the RSM or equivalent. Neither your Troop WO nor Course Director have the authority to issue such an edict, and both should know that. At first, I thought this was simply a pro-forma exercise, now I see it's plain ignorance of the rules, and failure of the supervisor to educate themselves.

If your instructors continue to direct you to shave, a Redress of Grievance will get their attention. I defy them to stop that before it gets to the CO.

 

[Kat Stevens]

WTF is a "Course Director"?

 

[aesop081]

WTF is a "Course Director"?

"Course NCO"

 

[OldSolduer]

"Course NCO"

Fancy Schmancy title for the Admin NCO.

 

[Occam]

Well, that was an exercise in frustration.

All I could find was:

CFSCE Standing Orders - http://cfsce.kingston.mil.ca/files/SOP's/STANDING%20ORDERS.doc (DWAN link)
310. DRESS

310.1 The dress of all military personnel at CFSCE shall be in accordance with Canadian Forces Dress Regulations and shall be of high standard.  Authorised orders of dress and permissible seasonal variations are contained in CFSCE Routine Orders.

All of the CFSCE SOPS are "under revision" and not published.

Only the most recent edition of CFSCE Weekly Routine Orders and CFSCE Routine Orders (why they have two, I have no idea) are published to the DWAN, and there are no dress issues addressed in them.

Now, a casual survey of other units in all three elements show a smattering of approving authorities from the CO down to the Regulating Chief (in that case, at CFNES would be a PO1/CPO2 in charge of student administration).  CFNOS requires the Div Cdr's approval, which is at the LCdr level.  MARCORDS say CO/Commandant.  That's pretty meaningless info to this discussion, but there it is.

Regardless, the memo you submitted, if it was submitted to the Tp WO, should have been delivered to the Tp WO with minutes attached by those below him/her in the CoC.  Only then should it be returned to you after the Tp WO has approved or denied the request.  That's basic military correspondence 101, and doesn't matter where you are or what unit you're in.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  If CFSCE has an established policy for requesting to cease shaving, they've done a pretty poor job of publishing it to the masses.

In general, I find locating Army policies akin to pulling out my fingernails with my Leatherman.

 

[PMedMoe]

In general, I find locating Army policies akin to pulling out my fingernails with my Leatherman.

But more painful. 

 

[CountDC]

Too bad you are not able to produce a copy of your original approval - have you checked div notes? Contacted the Ship/unit where it was approved (if done properly they will have a copy on file).  Then it would be a matter of them trying to show where they have the authority to rescind the approval.  Neither an ID card or already having a beard is proof that it was approved.  Wouldn't be the first time a sailor grew it without approval and managed to get an ID renewed.

I question the TP WO having the authority to deny the request.  I believe it should be only the CO to deny or approve it and I don't understand why they would deny it when you already have it.  Now if it was a request to grow one I could see the issue while on course.

I think you may be caught in the old "why should he be treated dif" situation where they will try to block you at every turn.

If you are up to it I would encourage you to redress it all the way up.  May not help you but could save some other sailors a hassle down the road.  The wearing of beards is a point of pride for the navy and I am sure the forced shaving of a sailor will get some attention.

Good luck.

 

[OldSolduer]

I appreciate all the assistance, but the matter is closed.  My memo was returned to me today, denied on the basis that I'm a QL3 student.

What trade  are you taking QL3 for?

 

[Occam]

What trade  are you taking QL3 for?

Secret Squirrel = Comm Rsch.

 

[LoKe]

Well, I'm just going to drop the issue. I appreciate all the assistance, but the school doesn't recognize it the way most seem to. Apparently the course direcotr put his minutes on it because it wasn't dressed up properly, and informed me that the RSM has given his input on the matter and it will be denied if I put it up again.

I've caught enough shit for the issue already. I'll just wait until I'm posted and have it handled properly.

 

[Robert0288]

Sucks but good luck on your QL3.  You mod1 or 2?

 

[Occam]

About all I can add is that not long ago, I was asked if I wanted to volunteer for a tasking to teach at CFSCE.  I thought about it briefly, but said no.  In retrospect, am I ever glad I turned it down.  If they can't manage a cease shaving chit without resorting to skull**ckery like that, I'd hate to see how CFSCE deals with personnel on a grander scale.

 

[211RadOp]

I talked with an MWO from CFSCE about this tonight on the ball diamond.  We think your Course Director is expelling bovine fecal matter.  He was very surprised that the memo did not go to your course WO as that is were it was addressed to.  His suggestion is to talk to your SSM if you want to push this or to have the clerk at your home unit pull up your original memo and fax/e-mail it to you.

 

[ModlrMike]

Why is this not going to the CO? I can understand your NCOs sending your memo back to you for correction or amplification, but it is not their place to decide issues of dress, but to implement them. The CO on advice of the SM makes the rules, the rest of us follow them.