Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty

[the 48th regulator]

To deal with the terrorist organization (Al-Qaida) who attacked the WTC on 9/11. These terrorists were harboured within the borders of Afghanistan by the Taliban Regime.

Further to routing Afghanistan of terrorists and extremists, we are mandated to train and assist ANA, Police and to provide security and security that enable reconstruction efforts that are occuring. In doing so, we are expected to abide by and respect the laws, tradition and culture of our host nation and to also ensure that we conduct "ourselves" IAW Canadian law and CF regulations concurrently.

No where ... are we expected to have those citizens of that sovereign nation conduct "themselves" IAW Canadian Law and CF Regulations.

We are obligated to report crimes such as rape etc.

We are NOT obligated to report a cutural tradition that accepts and allows boys to prostitute themselves to men because that IS NOT a War Crime or a Crime against Humanity unless that prostitution is "ENFORCED" prostitution which was indeed the case in the FRY, but is not the case in Afghanistan.

I don't like it Tess either, but it is NOT a war Crime, nor is it a Crime against Humanity ... no matter how much our western ideals see us wishing that it was.

Again Vern,

Who Justified our forces to be there and why?

And if they did, what laws are we upholding?  Are we now a mercenry force, brought in to eradicate the Taliban to install the curent regime?

Further to that, why is the exploitation of children not a "NOT a war Crime, nor is it a Crime against Humanity"?

I have presented international laws stating it is, but why does Vern's opinion supercede those?

I guess I am missing a point here.

dileas

tess

 

[johnnycanuck]

read my first post  its like stepping into a time machine 1000 year old customs will not be changed instantly...like just add water and stir..voila
as repugnant as it seems to  most decent folk ...see my last post ...and "remember 'the guy with all the answers' couldn't be here today he was busy with other things"

 

[armyvern]

Again Vern,

Who Justified our forces to be there and why?

And if they did, what laws are we upholding?  Are we now a mercenry force, brought in to eradicate the Taliban to install the curent regime?

dileas

tess

What!!??

Why don't YOU answer some of the questions posed to you?

What age Tess? Are Canadians committing crimes against humanity each and every day here at home?

Afghanistan now has a democraticly elected government. They are a sovereign nation ... and the United Nations will tell you the same thing. Their laws are valid.

The UNs own site qualifies the "age of consent" statement that it gives: it says "UN Forces" can't have sexual relations with anyone under 18 in the host nation regardless of the age of consent in that nation, but it sure doesn't say that the citizens of that country can't have sex with a 16 year old in that nation if that should be the age of consent there.

You want to enforce and change their culture as being "wrong" and not IAW Canadian ideals or western values ... then I move that it is actually YOU who is becomming the "occupier" of Afghanistan, not me (I'm a mercenary now?? Please. ) :.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Then why are we still there?

While we are there we see the local constibulary, and military commiting international crime, and you say turn a blind eye as it is okay in their culture?

Should we have done that in Yugo?  Ethnic Cleansing was an acceptible way of the Slavic culture for hundres of years.

Should our troops have walked away from the Death camps, because it was culturally accepted by the Germanic populace? 

Give me a break, the moment we have entered their land, fighting and dieing, yet ignoring the basic fundemenals of human rights, is hypocritical.

We are not there to get notches on our belts, and train our troops in combat.

I can not believe I am having this conversation with people who serve/seved in the Canadian Military!

dileas

tess

 

[armyvern]

Then why are we still there?

While we are there we see the local constibulary, and military commiting international crime, and you say turn a blind eye as it is okay in their culture?

Should we have done that in Yugo?  Ethnic Cleansing was an acceptible way of the Slavic culture for hundres of years.

Should our troops have walked away from the Death camps, because it was culturally accepted by the Germanic populace? 

Give me a break, the moment we have entered their land, fighting and dieing, yet ignoring the basic fundemenals of human rights, is hypocritical.

We are not there to get notches on our belts, and train our troops in combat.

I can not believe I am having this conversation with people who serve/seved in the Canadian Military!

dileas

tess

You're STILL not answering.

As for the bit below about "Vern's opinion" when you've posted international laws ...

Did you miss the bit where I told you to read the very next para H in that international law you were citing that states it is a crime against humanity to punish people etc due to their cultural beliefs?

You are trying to paint a picture that you are somehow holier than me. That you are righteous and that I am a mercenary. That I condone this happening. I do not, did not, will not condone it as I have REPEATEDLY stated in this thread. That STILL does not make this a crime against humanity.

How dare you insult my service. Or my ethics, or my morals. How dare you. I guess some one did come along and appoint you God. Simply because we both dislike what is occuring, but one believes it's a war crime and one doesn't.

Have a great night.

 

[Babbling Brooks]

I've followed this thread with great interest, and must compliment many of those who have posted excellent arguments here.  Like all of you, I read of the rape of a young boy, and was deeply affected by it.  I have a young son myself, and cannot help empathizing -  for more than a day, I literally couldn't keep my mind away from the horror I felt at this heinous abuse.  One of my greatest motivations to join the CF nearly 20yrs ago was the desire to protect others, and I can clearly see how not being able to do that in every situation could be psychologically debilitating for soldiers so strongly motivated and conditioned to protect the weak.  It's important - not only for the Afghans, but for the Canadians as well - that our assistance be conditional upon certain standards of behaviour; our blood and treasure is being spent to make improvements to that country, not to uphold the status quo.

Having said that, I think a couple of points need to be made about where this thread has gone.

First, it's easy to point to one extreme - say, the witness of a rape - and say "that's wrong, you should stop it."  Absolutely.  And it's easy to point to another - say, sending girls to school - and say "that's good, we need to keep doing that."  Absolutely, as well.

But the grey area in between is where we all live, and none more so than those actually walking the dusty tracks of Kandahar.  I hesitate to speak for Vern, but it seems to me that that's what she was trying to point out: the extremes are easy to deal with, but the closer we get to the middle ground, looking for where to draw the line, the more difficult the task becomes.

Hence the discussion about how old a boy can be before his participation can truly be judged consensual.  We can all agree that 8 or 10 would be too young, and we can probably all agree that 25 would be old enough.  But if we're to enforce a standard, we need to decide which we're going to use, and that involves picking a line somewhere in the middle - a line that not all will agree upon.  And if we're going to enforce it for boys, should we not also logically enforce it for girls as well?

When Amir Attaran was suggesting Canada operate a jail in conjunction with the Afghan gov't, I wrote the following:

It's a fantastic idea.

But here's the kicker: there are a million fantastic ideas to move Afghan society forward, and we simply can't do all of them.

Does it make more sense to spend money on rehabilitating irrigation canals for Afghan food crops so a village can feed itself, or to spend that money on a prison so that incarcerated Taliban fighters get three squares a day? Should we be more concerned with providing a Village Medical Outreach to a hamlet that hasn't seen a real doctor in a decade or more, or with providing basic electrical service to a town, or with stocking a hospital's maternity ward with supplies and equipment, or with training children how to avoid land-mines, or with teaching police how to conduct a decent checkpoint or investigation, or with digging a well and providing a clean water supply to a collection of families without one now, or with building a school where the future of Afghanistan learns to read and add, or with providing a secure pay system for essential workers like doctors and teachers to help curb graft and corruption, or should we really be most concerned with heating a jail in the winter?

That was a run-on sentence, because the list of projects we could undertake would make for a run-on mission if we let it.

At this point, we can't fix everything. We need to focus our efforts on a limited spread of achievable goals. Protecting detainees better than we do is certainly achievable if we want it to be - but what other goals will be sacrificed to make it so?

Right now, this mission is about choices for Canada. It's about the difficult process of triage for an entire nation. Civilized countries are meticulous about human rights, even those of detainees. Has Afghanistan progressed to the point where this is the highest priority?

Obviously, the rape of young boys isn't the same as having a Taliban thug sleep in a drafty prison cell, as far as priorities are concerned.  But the conflict of principles holds true in both cases: "Never pass a fault" versus "Don't let the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'good.'"

The idea of sacrificing one small boy in order to save a relationship with an ANP unit is personally abhorrent to me.  But our soldiers "pass a fault" every single day - in the way women are treated, in the way corruption is a daily fact of life, in the way drugs are a staple of the economy, and on and on.  They do it because they can't fix everything at once.

With all due respect to Tess, whose feelings on the matter are obviously noble and heartfelt, the argument here isn't whether raping a child is wrong - nobody's arguing it's right.  The argument is about how best to make lasting changes to the social landscape in Afghanistan, to bring it into the world community so that both we and Afghans are safer and more prosperous.  Because the whole western intervention is a collection of compromises, of priorities, of not letting the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'good.'

None of us could stand by and listen or watch while a child was abused.  But it's much easier for each of us to decide what we would do individually if the situation were right in front of us than it is to decide how, as a nation, we're to deal with such a problem systemically, as but one facet of an already overcomplicated mission.

No easy answers...

 

[X-mo-1979]

If were going to start acting as social workers we need more numbers. (refering to the outside of camp raping)
Just remember how many troop's are actually outside that wire,and the number back in KAF.

Wouldnt it fall on the POMLT and OMLT to ensure this sort of thing didnt happen in reference to the ANA/ANP?

 

[MG34]

The bottom line is we are NOT there to change any of the locals customs be they horrific or not, if in their culture "boys are for fun..." it is not up to us as guests to do anything about it.

ETA: I would not trust anything that comes from the mouth of oa certain Pte who has seemed to make the news alot lately...he seems to forget that there were many other soldiers present at the time of his alleged observations...there is no report nor any other witnesses to this specific event I would strongly suggest it is a fabrication. AS for "man love Thursday" on the other hand yes that is a fact.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We have enough abuses here in our own country that we can't seem to get a lid on and some think that we can stop it from happening in a place a lot more "untame" than here?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I agree with all the sentiments re:  "where the hell do you start?" when it comes to sorting out failed states like AFG.

However, to play the devil's advocate, some are saying, "hey, don't mess with their culture".  Since there is a cultural history of not educating women in rural areas of AFG, I presume the projects CAN is undertaking as described highlighted here are meant for boys only, then?

We're also working to deal with "a number of challenges—including illiteracy, corruption and drug abuse among the ANP and weaknesses in the judicial and correctional systems" - all of the three issues mentioned here are part of a long-standing ANP culture - do we let these slide, too?

My feeling is that since we won't realistically be able to change the ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIOURS of SOCIETY AS A WHOLE when it comes to pedophilia, it's gotta be possible, as part of the POMLT or OMLT process, to change THE BEHAVIOURS OF THE SECURITY FORCES.  This must be possible in light of the fact that, as someone wiser than me once said, "you can train people to run into burning buildings or towards bullets aimed at them."

Yeah, it's hard, and could ruffle feathers if handled badly, but I think we need to start.

 

[TrexLink]

milnewstbay - I understand your concern, as well as that of other previous posters, but there are a number of things worth reiterating.

(As an aside, the problem with this whole discussion is that it has grown to encompass two issues. The first is a relatively small number of allegations of rape by Afghan troops. The second is consensual adolescent homosexual prostitution. (And please let's not get into an arbitrary 'age of consent' definition passed in an air conditioned building in New York. The reality is that Afghanistan is a primitive society and in any such, boys and girls assume adult roles much sooner. The Jewish Bar Mitzvah is a good example, a holdover from the ancient Hebrew ceremony acknowledging that the 13-year-old male in question is now a man and about to enter society as a working and soon-to-be-married individual.)  It is very easy to fuzzify these two issues into one.  Rape is never acceptable, but our ability to react to an incident in progress is strictly limited and depends heavily on what powers our troops are given by ROEs. The other issue is one of a host of things Canadians find disturbing, even distasteful, about Afghan ways, but which we may on a strictly pragmatic basis have to ignore.)

First and foremost, we have no mandate to do any form of social reworking. The UNSC's charge to ISAF is (Cole's Notes version) to stabilize and to train security forces.  OK, an argument can be made that those might include lectures on 'playing nice' (western-style) but the focus must remain on turning a bunch of tough, intelligent, but semi-literate peasants into effective soldiers and cops. Guess where the priority is going to lie?

Moreover, going back to our mandate, the Afghans would be within their rights to tell us to get stuffed. Most of them are quite comfortable with arranged child marriages, polygamy or adolescent homosexual prostitution, but would be scandalized, horrified by the thought of sitting down to dine on baked ham and a glass of wine. To them, for a bunch of heathenistic foreign pork-loving sinners to show up and demand that they change their ways to conform to that of our JudeoChristian ideals would be a total affront. Each time we try to bring about a societal change, even if small and even if successful, it causes friction and reduces to some extent our influence and ability to bring about other changes. We need to pick our fights.

Those areas of social change we are involved with are generally those already blessed by the govt of Afghanistan. For instance, President Karzai's administration agrees with female suffrage and universal education and has made them a priority, so the way is clear for us to provide support in those areas.

Third, every conference, every study, every panel, every PhD dissertation on poverty has concluded that the best way out is universal education. If we are looking for a long-term solution, get the boys and girls capable of reading and writing, capable of thinking outside of their historic box, capable of assessing facts from outside of their own reality. From that will follow far bigger changes than 35,000 ISAF troops in the midst of 35,000,000 Afghans can ever achieve.

Fourth, while the ethical 'Walking Away from Omelas' question about tolerating limited evils to permit greater good elsewhere is unanswerable, we cannot do everything, be everywhere, see all.  At some point, pragmatism has to kick in.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Hey all,

Sorry fro pruning the thread, I was participating in it, and should not have used my MOD powers to do that.

However, I agian was not contributing to the discussion any further, just rehashing what I said.

Sorry George for cleaning out our exchange.

dileas

tess

 

[HItorMiss]

As for the abuse of children does it happen, I suppose so but I am not an expert in the law that goeverns the populace of Afghanistan. I have not read the charter that says age of consent nor the laws that goveren who what and where they can partake in there personal pleasure. What I can say is that do ANA soldiers like to bugger eachother or should I say be much more affectionate with another man? yes they do repeatedly but thats what they do who am I to force my personal view on them just like I cannot for this country do that to those that partake in homosexual relations.


Edit: My personal feelings have been removed as they have no bearing on the discussion at large....and I got the rank wrong LMAO

 

[McG]

While we cannot adopt a philosophy of ethical relativism (all moral principles derive validity from cultural acceptance & there are no universally valid moral principles that apply to all people at all times) we must also accept that we (the west) do not own a monopoly on proper moral principles.  With that in mind, it is most certainly not the job of the military to socially re-engineer Afghan culture with respect to things that may fall within gray areas or which may be questioned. 

We will follow the law of armed conflict and we can demand that of those who fight along side us (such as the ANA).  We can demand our soldiers follow the laws & expectations of Canadian society ... and this would include the expectation that our soldiers not turn a blind eye to crimes of violence (reporting, formal complaints, etc).  The authority to use force (or not) for protecting persons from violent crimes would doctrinally be an ROE issue that cannot be discussed here.

Dictating that the age of maturity be late or post teens (as opposed to early or mid teens) is not our prerogative.  On the issue of age of maturity, you can even see differences between Europe & N. America, Canada & the US, and even province to province.  Afghan prostitution is something else outside of our prerogative (and besides, we don't really have the moral high ground on this when such facilities are openly operating in Canadian cities & advertising in the yellow pages).  Homosexual spring-autumn relations?  Well, making exception for differing views on age of majority, I'm sure we have such relations in our country and as a society we have come to accept homosexual relations as ethical.  Gold-digging seems to be a celebrated activity within the western tabloid media.  On all of these issues we can demand our soldiers & Canadian contractors not participate and that all persons within or fobs & bases conform to western moral standards.  If any transformation of the Afghan society at large is to take place, it is the domain of the political/diplomatic effort and it is not the role of the military effort.

Physically taking control of another person and having one's way with them, rape, is a violent crime.  With respect to this we should be doing something from use of force (as/if authorized by ROE) or reporting to Afghan police to officially complaining to the Afghan government if such acts are the work of Afghan government agents (security or otherwise). 

Suggestions of crimes against humanity are over the top.  Nothing of the sort has been hinted to have occurred.  Just because a crime was committed by soldiers and happened to be on the (now frequently) quoted list, it is not automatically a crime against humanity.  One may as well suggest that the beating death of a Toronto homeless man was a crime against humanity ... but that's just getting silly.

As for the role in Afghanistan, one can find the international mandate on page 3 here: http://www.unama-afg.org/news/_londonConf/_docs/06jan30-AfghanistanCompact-Final.pdf
One will also not the specifically stated importance of respecting the sovereignty of the Afghan government.  It is the Afghan government (and only the afghan government) that can decide which moral issues are of such significance as to be legislated and enforced (and how they will be enforced) within the nation. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Lotsa good discussion here, indeed - didn't think it would go this long when I first posted the original article.


Should we try to change Afghan societal ideas about pedophilia and homosexualty? 

Agreed that it's WAY out of ISAF's/OEF's lanes, and outside the lanes of the West, whose own house may not be spotless on a lot of things.


Should we change ROE's and other rules to hunt down pedophilia in the AFG security forces? 

Agreed that there's LOTS more pressing "must do's" before this (what I consider) "should do".


Can you have AFG security forces fully trusted by the population they defend and protect if people know they may be chickenhawking their kids?  Even in their off time?  Even if it's accepted behaviour among civilians? 

No way.


Could AFG security forces' BEHAVIOUR be changed (as opposed to attitudes) in this respect? 

Not impossible, given you can train cops/troops to do things contrary to their personal safety and security interests.


Like many government "problem-solution" equations, though, I guess it does come down to "where do you start?" and "what can we do with the time/resources/rules we have?"

 

[George Wallace]

Should we change ROE's and other rules to hunt down pedophilia in the AFG security forces? 

The "Legalities" involved with changes to ROE's makes this highly unlikely.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Our ROE's are set to reflect Canadian values and society, based on the rules of war and conventions.

If, in Bosnia, would we stop a local from drinking alcohol at 16, because our age of majority is 19? Of course not, but why not? Because its clearly against our laws and culture, but not theirs, that's why.

If, in Afghanistan, the kid is prostituting himself at 14, that's a police matter, set for and reserved by the duly elected government of Afghanistan to sort out......... if they consider it a crime worth persuing. Go to the strips in TO or Vancouver, you'll see the same type of young kids trolling and cruising, and the same blind eye is turned all the time.

It's Afghanistan's law to administer, not ours. We may find it distasteful, but infringing on their culture is not our business.

If the kid is seen being abducted and raped, it can 'then' become our business, provided we can prove it, and we are sure that's what we are seeing.

It is not up to us to impose our moral ethics on anyone else. Civilization, evolution and conscience will eventually take care of that.

People have to be careful. It's a long fall from the top of that self righteous, moral high horse.

Especially if the government of the host country doesn't agree with you. And just because they don't, doesn't mean that you're right. The clash of cultures and civilizations won't stop in Afghanistan.

 

[GAP]

Afghan warlords keeping boys as sex slaves: UN
Posted Tue Jul 8, 2008 11:03am AEST
Article Link

Afghanistan must do more to end an age-old practice of young boys being kept as sex slaves by wealthy and powerful patrons, the UN special representative for children and armed conflict said.

Radhika Coomaraswamy said the practice, called "bacha bazi" - literally "boy play" - was a taboo subject, but she had heard reports of warlords and military commanders keeping young boys and "exploiting them in terrible ways".

"What I found was nobody talks about it; everyone says 'Well, you know, it's been there for 1,000 years so why do we want to raise this now?'" she told a news conference at UN headquarters, reporting on a visit to Afghanistan last week.

"That seems to be the general attitude among everyone, but somebody has to raise it and it has to be dealt with."

Known as "bacha bereesh," boys without beards, the victims of such abuse are teenage boys who dress up as girls and dance for male patrons at parties in northern Afghanistan.

"We feel that a campaign should be run to raise awareness about this issue and to stop this practice," she said.

"We talk about sexual violence against girls and women, which is also terrible, but this hidden issue of sexual violence against boys should also be dealt with seriously."

Afghan police have tried to crack down on the practice and Islamic clerics say those involved should be stoned for sodomy, which is forbidden under Islamic law.

In a society where the sexes are strictly segregated, it is common for men to dance for other men at weddings in Afghanistan.

But in northern Afghanistan, former warlords and mujahideen commanders have taken that a step further, sometimes taking the boys as "mistresses".

Police and security officials in northern Afghanistan say they have been doing their best to arrest the men involved.

"It is sad to state that this practice that includes making boys dance, sexual abuse and sometimes even selling boys, has been going on for years," security chief of Kunduz province General Asadollah Amarkhil said.

"We have taken steps to stop it to the extent that we are able."

Gen Amarkhil said poverty, widespread in Afghanistan after nearly three decades of war, forced teenage boys into compliance.

Ms Coomaraswamy said raising awareness and prosecuting those responsible was the first step to ending the practice as it would act as a deterrent to others.

She said she was also concerned about a rise in the recruitment of child soldiers by the Taliban and others in recent months, as well as about civilian casualties including children from US-led coalition raids and air strikes.

- Reuters
End

 

[The Bread Guy]

And a transcript of the news conference

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Afghan warlords keeping boys as sex slaves: UN

Now all we need is for an Afghan news agency to pick up on certain stories and report something along the lines of "UN forces keeping children as sex slaves: Afghan warlords".