Afghan Detainee Mega Thread

[Colin Parkinson]

Well I think the Van doos going to the sandbox will actually be a good thing, it will cause a quiet sense of pride amongst working class Quebecers and the troops will be sending back stories and reports about the real world, not massaged by the media. 

 

[3rd Herd]

Well I think the Van doos going to the sandbox will actually be a good thing, it will cause a quiet sense of pride amongst working class Quebecers and the troops will be sending back stories and reports about the real world, not massaged by the media.   

Differences of opinion between
"Quebecers and other Canadians on defence matters are nothing new. Indeed, as long as surveys have recorded the public’s preferences, French Canadians or Quebecers have been less supportive of militarism and war. The most salient manifestations of this tendency, of course, came when conscription sharply divided French and English Canadians during the two world wars. During the Cold War, as James Iain Gow documented in a 1970 article, French-speaking Quebecers’ opinions continued to reflect isolationism and opposition to militarism and imperialism, but Gow noted an evolution toward more openness. Today, although surveys still register slightly lower measures of internationalism in Quebec, few would argue that the province is isolationist. Anti-militarism, however, remains present. In a recent study for the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute, Jean-Sébastien Rioux calls this pattern the “common wisdom,” and sees little evidence against it. As he rightly observes, however, this does not mean that Quebecers are invariably hostile to the military or incapable to accept the sacrifices required in pursuit of a sound defence policy. If they can be convinced by sensible arguments that a given military venture serves their country’s best interests, they won’t stand against it."
Martin, Pierre. ALL QUEBEC’S FAULT, GAIN? QUEBEC PUBLIC OPINION AND CANADA’S REJECTION OF MISSILE DEFENCE. OPTIONS POLITIQUES, MAI 2005. (pgs. 40-44)

Quebeckers, whose mostly French-speaking Royal 22nd Regiment is just arriving in Kandahar ahead of what is expected to be months of renewed fighting against a resurgent Taliban, want most strongly (71 per cent) to scrap any combat role for the Canadian Forces. If the Vandoos start taking casualties, anti-war sentiment in Quebec may harden. Again, Albertans and Quebeckers are on opposite sides of the issue: 65 per cent of Albertans want Canadian troops to fight on while 60 per cent of Quebeckers want to "abandon this mission."

KORING, PAUL. “Canadians split on mission, but strongly support troops”, Globe and Mail.

 

[geo]

3rd... regardless of what official surveys say, people I deal with DO support the Cdn Military.  Those who are against it want canadian troops out of IRAQ immediately.

Given that we aren't there and have not been there for any of the current round of fighting, I can safely assure them that their wish is my command

 

[3rd Herd]

Geo,
"Those who are against it want Canadian troops out of IRAQ immediately." ???
All the people I am currenting dealling with support the troops especially those in Afghanistan. I tossed in that post to illuminate the historical perspective. Maybe this time around there will be a massive up swelling of support in Quebec, although I highly doubt it. Which to some extent I find strange given the amount of former military personal living in that province.

 

[geo]

well... to date, there has not been any massive upswell against Afghanistan - to which I can say.... no news is good news.

When 5CMBG provided their forces to the Multinaitonal Bde in Kabul, there was no opposition and I can't see why things would be any different this time around

WRT the Iraq thing... I know, was just to show ya that there are "peacenicks" who are not well informed and have tunel vision.  Please re-read my 2nd para

 

[3rd Herd]

well... to date, there has not been any massive upswell against Afghanistan - to which I can say.... no news is good news.

When 5CMBG provided their forces to the Multinaitonal Bde in Kabul, there was no opposition and I can't see why things would be any different this time around

WRT the Iraq thing... I know, was just to show ya that there are "peacenicks" who are not well informed and have tunnel vision.  Please re-read my 2nd para

I would add in a couple of thousand undergrads. Given that this week around U of C it is "Landmine Awareness Week". Had fun with a couple of those over the weekend pointing out their data was 10 years old. I then provided them with some more up to data, picture a rapidly deflating balloon. Then I got mildly chastised for being somewhat hard on them, afterall they are just under grads. If you be going to a 'gun fight' you had better make sure your ammo is up to date.

 

[geo]

Ayup

 

[niner domestic]

And continuing in the saga of complete waste of the MPCC's resources is yet another investigation. This one spurred by the BCCLA and Amnesty Int'l.  http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=f77f7499-5b68-4e6e-a8e2-35dea63867ae&k=62198

 

[geo]

heh.... at least all the investigations are on the same subject and can be run concurrently.

 

[McG]

Afghan commission to act as detainee watchdog
Updated Wed. Feb. 28 2007 7:44 PM ET
Canadian Press

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan -- The Kandahar office of Afghanistan's human rights commission has agreed to act as watchdog for detainees captured by Canadians to ensure that valid complaints of abuse are investigated, The Canadian Press has learned.

The secret agreement with military commanders papers over concerns raised by human rights groups about the practice of handing captured Taliban prisoners over to Afghan authorities who have a reputation for torture. It could also take some of the fire out of a burning debate over allegations that Canadian troops abused detainees last spring.

"Canadians respect human rights very well," Abdul Quadar Noorzai, the Kandahar manager of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, said in an interview. He was eager to trumpet the agreement signed last Friday with Brig.-Gen. Tim Grant, commander of Canadian troops in Afghanistan.

"It is one of the greatest acts taken by them and I really appreciate it from the core of my heart," said a beaming Noorzai, who's been working for a year to carve out such an arrangement.

Marc Raider, a spokesman for the Defence Department in Ottawa, confirmed the existence of the agreement and said it builds on a December 2005 technical arrangement signed between Afghanistan's defence minister and Canadian Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier.

That initial deal, which has been criticized by human rights groups, obliges Canadian troops to turn over captured militants to local authorities but does not allow Canada any say in their treatment once handed over.

The agreement signed by Hillier recognized the Afghan human rights commission but did not set out a specific role for the agency. Last Friday's agreement changed that. Not only does Canada have to notify the International Committee of the Red Cross when it transfers a prisoner to Afghan custody, it now must also inform Noorzai's office.

"It's simply an added layer of protection," said Raider, who wouldn't comment on whether the agreement would satisfy critics.

Noorzai said he is now free to investigate and document cases of suspected detainee abuse, whether the allegations involve Canadian troops or Afghan authorities. There are well documented cases of torture in Afghan prisons.

On Monday, Canada's Military Police Complaints Commission opened a wide-ranging investigation into allegations that on 18 occasions troops handed over prisoners knowing they would be abused. Amnesty International Canada and the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association lodged the complaint that prompted the investigation.

Similarly, at least three investigations are going on into the alleged beating of three captured Taliban who were picked up near the village Dukah, 50 kilometres west of Kandahar, on April 7, 2006. According to prisoner-transfer logs obtained and released to the media by an Ottawa law professor, the prisoners suffered lacerations and contusions.

Prof. Amir Attaran said the injuries appear to have been inflicted while the men were in Canadian custody - an allegation the military denies but is nonetheless investigating.

The new agreement signed with the Afghan human rights commission gives potential victims a way to get their complaints investigated, documented and presented to either Canadian authorities or the local judiciary for prosecution, Noorzai said.

The complaint must be well founded.

"I need to prove the allegation," Noorzai said.

"If the case has facts behind it, I have to do something for the person."

Canada is the only NATO country to strike such an arrangement so far. The Afghan commission hopes other alliance members will do the same.

The negotiations were started almost a year ago when Nader Naderi, commissioner of the Afghan human rights commission based in Kabul, went to Canada and met with the minister of defence.

Noorzai said eventually he would like to see the agreement expanded, or a separate arrangement signed, that would allow the commission to report on civilian shootings by foreign troops.

...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070228/afghan_hr_070228/20070228?hub=Canada

 

[GAP]

Canada loses track of Afghan detainees
Military investigators unable to locate three men allegedly abused by troops
PAUL KORING From Friday's Globe and Mail
Article Link

WASHINGTON — The three detainees at the heart of multiple probes into allegations of abuse by Canadian soldiers have disappeared while in Afghan custody, a seemingly grave breach of the Canada-Afghan pact on detainee treatment, The Globe and Mail has learned.

That poses significant challenges for the criminal probe and raises new doubts about government assurances that all detainees are properly treated and accounted for.

Major Robert Bell, senior operations officer for the Canadian National Investigation Service, said in a brief telephone interview that NIS investigators have been unable to determine what happened to the three men, but said they are still working on the case.

When asked to confirm information that Military Police have been unable to find the three men Canadian troops handed over to Afghan National Police on April 8, 2006, Major Bell said: “No we haven't.”
More on link

 

[MarkOttawa]

Babbling Brooks takes on the Ottawa Citizen:

Just plain wrong
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/03/just-plain-wrong.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Let me guess they were males, dark hair, rough hands, wearing turbans and answer to Abdullah and Mohammad………

 

[geo]

Hmmm....

Lemme see if I get this straight
We fight with & capture a bunch of beligerents
In the process they might have gotten banged up a little bit - but not killed
We take Afghan TB and hand them over to the Afghan gov't representatives, employees of an elected government.........
Then it's our fault when these guys go missing?

Might as well have shipped em out of Afghanistan and put them up in a Holliday Inn Express

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

WASHINGTON — The three detainees at the heart of multiple probes into allegations of abuse by Canadian soldiers have disappeared while in Afghan custody, a seemingly grave breach of the Canada-Afghan pact on detainee treatment, The Globe and Mail has learned.

That poses significant challenges for the criminal probe and raises new doubts about government assurances that all detainees are properly treated and accounted for.

...OK, now the "Mope and Wail" has officialy became just a little more trustworthy than the National Enquirer.......and sinking fast.

 

[McG]

Afghan prisoner transfer deal toughened: O'Connor
Updated Sun. Mar. 4 2007 3:15 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor says a new provision has been added to Canada's prisoner transfer agreement with Afghanistan.

The news comes just days after news broke this week that three Afghan prisoners who are considered key witnesses in the probe into allegations of abuse by Canadian soldiers, have disappeared.

Speaking on CTV's Question Period on Sunday, O'Connor said Canada has signed an agreement that requires an Afghan human rights group to monitor treatment of detainees.

"What we've done is we've added to it recently. We've added another process getting the Afghan Human Rights Commission involved. We just signed another agreement with them at the local level," O'Connor said.

However, he said the agreement has been in the works since last June, and is not the direct result of the prisoners' disappearance.

The transfer agreement originally signed in 2005 by Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier, stipulated that detainees will not face execution after Canadian troops hand them over. It also requires that "accurate written records accounting for all detainees" be kept by both Canada and Afghanistan.

But Canada has no power to follow up and ensure that the provisions are followed once the prisoners have been handed over.

Other forces, such as the Dutch, British and Danish, have such stipulations written into their handover agreements, but Canada's only sets out that the International Committee of the Red Cross is responsible for the treatment and tracking of the prisoners.

Now, he said, one more "level of comfort" has been added into the deal.

"We're there in support of the Afghan government and when we get insurgents who break the law we hand them over to the authorities," O'Connor said.

"We want assurances that they're treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention. I know according to the rules of law they don't have to be treated under the Geneva Convention, but we insist that they are. We are reliant on the International Red Cross to monitor this and now we're asking the human rights organization to also do it."

Suspected militants captured in Afghanistan do not fall under the Geneva Convention, according to the military, because they do not wear a uniform and are not fighting for a recognized state.

O'Connor refused to speculate on what may have happened to the three missing prisoners, but said no one should jump to conclusions until the National Investigation Service has completed its probe.

He pointed out that the families of Afghan prisoners often find the means to get them released.

"Theoretically, everyone is member of a tribe and sometimes tribes get their people out of prison either through influence or paying fines...so it's quite a revolving door," O'Connor said. But he added that "anyone can be found."

The disappearance of three Afghan detainees -- key prisoners in the investigation into alleged abuse by Canadian soldiers -- has prompted strong criticism over the prisoner handover agreement.

Critics say Canada is putting too much faith in the Afghan military to treat suspected militants with respect, claiming they are often subjected to torture and even execution.

"This is a tremendous failing on the part of the Department of National Defense and I worry about it," Amin Attaran, a law professor from the University of Ottawa, told CTV Newsnet on Friday.

"It's just minimal basic requirement of taking care of any living person that you treat them without any kind of risk of torture, that you shelter them properly and you do not give them to known torturers as the Afghans currently are."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070304/qp_occonnor_070304/20070304?hub=TopStories

 

[GAP]

Red Cross contradicts Ottawa on detainees
Aid agency confirms it does not monitor Canada-Afghan deal on prisoner treatment
PAUL KORING From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Article Link

WASHINGTON — The International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed Wednesday that it has no role in monitoring the Canada-Afghanistan detainee-transfer agreement, in direct contradiction to assurances Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor has made to the House of Commons.

The Red Cross also said that it would never divulge to Ottawa any abuses it might identify in Afghan prisons.

“We were informed of the agreement, but we are not a party to it and we are not monitoring the implementation of it,” Simon Schorno, a spokesman for the ICRC, said in an interview.

In his most explicit statement to the House of Commons on May 31, Mr. O'Connor said: “The Red Cross or the Red Crescent is responsible to supervise their treatment once the prisoners are in the hands of the Afghan authorities. If there is something wrong with their treatment, the Red Cross or Red Crescent would inform us and we would take action.”
More on link

 

[GAP]

What I think is very relevant here is this quote in the article

Mr. Schorno said the ICRC has no arrangement with Canada to visit detainees in the custody of Canadian Forces and has never done so. It has no complaints or any other conclusions about Canadian treatment of detainees because it has no arrangement with Canada. Mr. Schorno said the Red Cross has never inspected any Canadian cells in Afghanistan. “The ICRC doesn't visit detainees in Canadian detention,” he said.

The Red Cross is right they don't inspect Canadian prisoner cells, because we turn all of the individuals over to the Afghans...There's a lot of word games going on here

 

[niner domestic]

Yes Gap, you are on the money with the word game.  I think a more telling quotation is from Kellenberger,  “Canada is scrupulous about notifying the Red Cross when it takes prisoners and hands them over.”

In my humble opinion, this whole paper witch hunt by Koring, Attaran and BBCLA has always been about money, prestige in the way of awards and research grants and CV padding.  It has little to do with the plight of a captured TB agent and as I have often asked these groups, pick one...either the rights of the TB agent upon capture or the rights of a female school teacher wanting to teach in a province of Afghanistan.  I have yet to see a court case/inquiry launched by these groups for the rights of the school teacher.  They conveniently left that up to the NATO troops to secure. 

 

[geo]

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