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NavComm said:
We already posted her story here http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/45506.0.html
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I remember a couple of years ago, on the Fifth Estate, or W5, or one of those programs; a little piece on a Mother who was graduating in Borden on the same Recruit Course as her son. They were both Navy. Can't remember her age though.
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That's great for all the ladies who did basic training in their 40's, and I'm all for that.
I'll be doing my IAP/BOTC between September and December 2006, and I'll turn 40 in that period. I am a father of two kids, 9 and 2 years old. I can tell you this: CBC won't be making a piece about me.
For many years now, women have been fighting to be equals to men. A lot of people would say that men and women are equals as of now. But then again, we cannot pass under silence stories like the one reported in this thread. Why is that ? Why do we, as a society, need to underline such stories ? Why do we have to underline such positive discrimination ?
Remember when Capt. Godard (hope I wrote her name correctly) died ! The press went crazy with this story...our first female soldier killed in action. Is it really more tragic than a male soldier's death ?
I don't think so.
I'll be doing my IAP/BOTC between September and December 2006, and I'll turn 40 in that period. I am a father of two kids, 9 and 2 years old. I can tell you this: CBC won't be making a piece about me.
For many years now, women have been fighting to be equals to men. A lot of people would say that men and women are equals as of now. But then again, we cannot pass under silence stories like the one reported in this thread. Why is that ? Why do we, as a society, need to underline such stories ? Why do we have to underline such positive discrimination ?
Remember when Capt. Godard (hope I wrote her name correctly) died ! The press went crazy with this story...our first female soldier killed in action. Is it really more tragic than a male soldier's death ?
I don't think so.
I would say most comments and such were complimentary. It's a huge change and challenge at that age, male or female. Guys probably find it somewhat easier, they are generally more familiar with the culture, but depending on what the female was doing prior to joining, there's a good chance there's a huge culture shock also.
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Very true. I don't understand it myself. There were men older than me (not in my platoon) and they didn't seem overly concerned with their age. I didn't compare myself to the younger ones either, though one woman on my course (39) constantly whined about her age. She seemed to want special treatment because of it, and many will say she got it!Berenguei said:
I found at basic at least, age was not a factor. Everybody hurt, everybody pushed themselves. Everybody that made it, pretty much gave it their all.
BBJ sorry I didn't see the story was already posted.
51 years old, that's pretty good, although there are men doing bmq at that age and doing well.
I do think there is a woman at my unit that did bmq at age 47, but I could be wrong about that. I'm going to ask her next time I see her.
Either way, young or old, bmq is a challenge and those that make it have something to be proud of. It's the people who go on to SQL that impress the hell out of me. That is a physically demanding course. I don't know how NETP will be, but from what I hear, it's not terribly difficult.
GAP +1 on the culture shock. I think it's a culture shock for most people, but I found it difficult coming from a civvie job where I am pretty much in charge of my world to go to a place where I am lower than low! Oh that was different for me and took some getting used to. I have learned to keep my head down and mouth shut, well...most of the time
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Its not the age the military is looking at, its what that person has to offer.
I was accepted into the Reserves at age 52 and was offered a job with the Reg. Forces with signing bonus.
I have my inter-provincial ticket in Heavy Equipment Repair( Diesel Mechanic ).
If you have a trade, they don't look at the age.
I was accepted into the Reserves at age 52 and was offered a job with the Reg. Forces with signing bonus.
I have my inter-provincial ticket in Heavy Equipment Repair( Diesel Mechanic ).
If you have a trade, they don't look at the age.
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Berenguei said:
I know that I am going to open up a can of worms with this, but something that I have discussed in depth with many people I have been on courses is the equality of women in the forces.
I don't understand the argument from women who are always pushing for exact equality, yet they seem content to let some things slide by.
An example of this is the double standard in PT requirements. Women are always pushing to be equal with men, however they don't seem to have a problem with having a lower requirement for PT scores.
There are many other issues that I can dive into, however I will leave it at this for now, to see how much dust I have stirred up.
Please understand that I support women in the forces, however it is my personal opinion that for some trades (combat arms), they should be able to do the same requirement as men for things such as PT.
Cheers
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Quag said:
Yeah...it seems silly to have two sets of standards in PT, one for men, another for women. Your observation brings up the following question:
WHY DO WE DO PT ?
Well, obviously, it has to relate to the physical capacity for doing various tasks in a combat unit...tasks directly related to combat missions. Imagine that 95 % of the platoon are men, carrying 60 pounds of gear out on a mission. Wouldn't women doing PT with a sub-par performance (in relation to men) be handicaped by such physical training ? It is only reasonable to say that on the long run, they would be lagging way behind.
Women in combat should go head to head with men...à la ''GI JANE'' (Demi Moore) style !!!
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http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-1995571.php
Grandma wears Army boots — and boy, is she proud
Basic training ages with grace
Margie Black — mother, grandmother, prison guard — has a new title: Private, U.S. Army.
At 41, she’s more than twice the age of the never-been-away-from-home teenagers who fidget and fret at the L. Mendel Rivers complex, the Army’s front door to the newly enlisted at Fort Jackson, S.C. She’s been here less than a week, and her calm demeanor has earned her a nickname.
“They call me Mom.”
And she’s not alone. Since January, the Army has increased the maximum enlistment age from 35 to 42, and people once deemed too old to fight have signed on the dotted line.
David S.C. Chu, undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness, says the improved health and fitness of middle-aged Americans makes it possible for them to enlist.
“People are living longer and are much healthier and physically fit into older ages than was true in earlier generations,” he said.
So far, only five people 40 and older — and 324 age 35 and older — have enlisted, Army records show. But members of their ranks are proving to be made of some tough stuff.
Pfc. Cindra Smith, 39, known as “Mama” or “Grandma” to some of her C Company platoon members at Redstone Arsenal, Ala., is training to go to Iraq to disarm bombs like the one that seriously injured her daughter.
Smith, of Xenia, Ohio, fractured a hip during basic training at Fort Jackson, S.C. In March, her mother died of cancer. And in June, shortly after her daughter had a child, doctors found a tumor on her daughter’s brain stem, requiring surgery.
But after a 10-day leave to be with her daughter, Smith was back in training, an inspiration to others.
“She leads by setting an example,” said Luisana Valencia, 20, of Visalia, Calif., a private in Smith’s platoon. “We go on runs, people get tired. She pushes herself and doesn’t stop [and says], ‘Hey, I’m older than you, but I’m not giving up.’”
Laurie-Ann Fuca, a 41-year-old mother of four, left for boot camp July 31 — three weeks after her eldest son was sent to Iraq at age 19. She’ll train at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo.
Fuca plans to go into a medical specialty and aims to help wounded troops and civilians. A native of Canada who has been a legal U.S. resident for the past decade, Fuca said the desire is probably in her blood. Her father and sister served in the Canadian army and her brother still does.
“My son was like ‘You’re crazy. Moms don’t join the military.’ I told him a lot of soldiers are somebody’s mom, and he said, ‘Yeah, but you’re MY mom!’”
One-stop recruiting
Ever since Margie Black was 19, she wanted to join the Army. Pregnancy with her daughter Ashley prevented that.
When Ashley, now 21, got serious about enlisting in the Army recently, recruiter Staff Sgt. James Alston, dropped Ashley off at home and joked with Black about signing the mom up. A few days later, Alston called Black to tell her the Army had raised its eligibility limit to a day short of 42.
For Alston, it was one-family shopping. “Her daughter joined on Monday; she joined on Friday.”
;Black arrived at hot, humid Fort Jackson on July 20 to begin her four-year enlistment. After she graduates from basic training, she’ll get instruction to be a truck dispatcher. She wanted to be a sniper, because of the stealth required, but it’s closed to women.
The Army has the military’s highest age limit. The Air Force and Marine limits are 27, while the Navy’s is 35.
Physical fitness, not age, should determine who serves, says David Segal, a military sociologist at the University of Maryland.
“We used to use gender as a surrogate to determine if people could do the job,” Segal says. “We found out that, A, we needed women for the Army and, B, they could do the job. It’s the same with age. It really should be physical ability that should screen people out for military jobs.”
The basic training standards of earning 50 points in each category of the Army Physical Fitness Test have not changed for the new older recruits, and remain the same as they have been since 1998. Older male recruits may also join the infantry.
“If a 42-year-old wants to come into the infantry, he can,” said Army spokesman Ray Harp. “But the probability of someone doing that is not high.”
Raising the age limit of new recruits is one of many steps the Army has made to try to increase the recruiting pool: More soldiers are allowed in without high school diplomas, recruits now may have tattoos on their necks and hands, and more soldiers have been allowed in with lower Army aptitude-test scores.
— Staff and wire reports
Grandma wears Army boots — and boy, is she proud
Basic training ages with grace
Margie Black — mother, grandmother, prison guard — has a new title: Private, U.S. Army.
At 41, she’s more than twice the age of the never-been-away-from-home teenagers who fidget and fret at the L. Mendel Rivers complex, the Army’s front door to the newly enlisted at Fort Jackson, S.C. She’s been here less than a week, and her calm demeanor has earned her a nickname.
“They call me Mom.”
And she’s not alone. Since January, the Army has increased the maximum enlistment age from 35 to 42, and people once deemed too old to fight have signed on the dotted line.
David S.C. Chu, undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness, says the improved health and fitness of middle-aged Americans makes it possible for them to enlist.
“People are living longer and are much healthier and physically fit into older ages than was true in earlier generations,” he said.
So far, only five people 40 and older — and 324 age 35 and older — have enlisted, Army records show. But members of their ranks are proving to be made of some tough stuff.
Pfc. Cindra Smith, 39, known as “Mama” or “Grandma” to some of her C Company platoon members at Redstone Arsenal, Ala., is training to go to Iraq to disarm bombs like the one that seriously injured her daughter.
Smith, of Xenia, Ohio, fractured a hip during basic training at Fort Jackson, S.C. In March, her mother died of cancer. And in June, shortly after her daughter had a child, doctors found a tumor on her daughter’s brain stem, requiring surgery.
But after a 10-day leave to be with her daughter, Smith was back in training, an inspiration to others.
“She leads by setting an example,” said Luisana Valencia, 20, of Visalia, Calif., a private in Smith’s platoon. “We go on runs, people get tired. She pushes herself and doesn’t stop [and says], ‘Hey, I’m older than you, but I’m not giving up.’”
Laurie-Ann Fuca, a 41-year-old mother of four, left for boot camp July 31 — three weeks after her eldest son was sent to Iraq at age 19. She’ll train at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo.
Fuca plans to go into a medical specialty and aims to help wounded troops and civilians. A native of Canada who has been a legal U.S. resident for the past decade, Fuca said the desire is probably in her blood. Her father and sister served in the Canadian army and her brother still does.
“My son was like ‘You’re crazy. Moms don’t join the military.’ I told him a lot of soldiers are somebody’s mom, and he said, ‘Yeah, but you’re MY mom!’”
One-stop recruiting
Ever since Margie Black was 19, she wanted to join the Army. Pregnancy with her daughter Ashley prevented that.
When Ashley, now 21, got serious about enlisting in the Army recently, recruiter Staff Sgt. James Alston, dropped Ashley off at home and joked with Black about signing the mom up. A few days later, Alston called Black to tell her the Army had raised its eligibility limit to a day short of 42.
For Alston, it was one-family shopping. “Her daughter joined on Monday; she joined on Friday.”
;Black arrived at hot, humid Fort Jackson on July 20 to begin her four-year enlistment. After she graduates from basic training, she’ll get instruction to be a truck dispatcher. She wanted to be a sniper, because of the stealth required, but it’s closed to women.
The Army has the military’s highest age limit. The Air Force and Marine limits are 27, while the Navy’s is 35.
Physical fitness, not age, should determine who serves, says David Segal, a military sociologist at the University of Maryland.
“We used to use gender as a surrogate to determine if people could do the job,” Segal says. “We found out that, A, we needed women for the Army and, B, they could do the job. It’s the same with age. It really should be physical ability that should screen people out for military jobs.”
The basic training standards of earning 50 points in each category of the Army Physical Fitness Test have not changed for the new older recruits, and remain the same as they have been since 1998. Older male recruits may also join the infantry.
“If a 42-year-old wants to come into the infantry, he can,” said Army spokesman Ray Harp. “But the probability of someone doing that is not high.”
Raising the age limit of new recruits is one of many steps the Army has made to try to increase the recruiting pool: More soldiers are allowed in without high school diplomas, recruits now may have tattoos on their necks and hands, and more soldiers have been allowed in with lower Army aptitude-test scores.
— Staff and wire reports
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Berenguei said:
Lol...
Good thing he was banned already... But on that note, congratulations to these proud elder applicants and recruits!!!
Also, I don't remember any of the women I trained with having to do LESS pushups or physical training then the rest of us... Those are only entrace standards, these girls in my platoon and 1 in my Section had to do all the same stuff the men had to do!
Cheers,
Joe
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R031 Pte Joe said:
Irregardless, the double standard is there.
You should also know through course experiences that, yes, women do have to the same stuff the men do, however should they not be able to complete all 25 of those pushups or end up walking the last part of the morning run, it is acceptable. Mind you, it is also acceptable for men, if they do the same.
The point is, the seperate entrance requirements for entrance requirements shows an extreme double standard in the Canadian Forces.
In my opinion, for certain trades (combat arms), the entrance standards should be the same for both men and women. I am a supporter of women in combat arms roles, however I believe that the standards should be the same.
Cheers
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And I thought I was too late to join the army at the age of 20.
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The US Army physical fitness test is normed based on age and gender. If you're a strapping lad of 19, you have to do your two mile run in 13:00 for a max run score. If you're 40, you get 14:02 to max your run. The push-up and sit-up are also normed for various age groups. It's no different for women. It isn't about a double standard. Women just have a different physical capacity level than men. I think it's great that older people are being allowed to serve in the Army. There are plenty of assignments that don't need a young buck old to serve in.
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Israel has allowed its women into the combat arms.
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=56933.EN
The Hour of the Female Warrior
Sunday 20/08/2006 18:33
IDF Female Warrior. Archive Photo: IDF Spokesperson
The war in Lebanon in the last month was the first conflict in which women served in operational combat roles. They fought shoulder to shoulder and back to back with the men, taking a full and equal part in the fight after steps by IDF to integrate women into its fighting forces. And now, at the moment of truth, the women's sacrifices to the defense of the State of Israel is evident. In the war in Lebanon women filled a wide range of assignments - as regular conscripts, career soldiers, and reservists.
Women serve combat assignments as: Artillerists, anti-aircraft personnel, search-and-rescue personnel, combat pilots, helicopter pilots, sailors, mortar NCOs, and search-and-rescue NCOs.
?in technical assignments as: Mechanics, aircraft mechanics, electricians, and armament officers.
?in field assignments as: Operations officers and sergeants, intelligence officers, look-outs, radio operators, flight controllers, naval command centers, paramedics, and doctors.
?in other assignments connected to the current conflict as: Teachers and counselors in times of emergency on the home front, operators at Homefront Command's telephone center, triage officers, military police with various capacities, and communications officers and NCOs.
"Today it?s a completely legitimate thing"
Staff Sergeant Orna Lachiani, 21, is an example of the integration of women in IDF's array of fighters. "I've commanded launchers for one and a half years," she says. "During the fighting I had command of my [launcher] for a period of about a month. We were in all sorts of places in the north and I can say that they put us to sufficiently broad use. We had more than a few successes. We hit firing points of [Hezbollah] launchers, the launchers themselves, and more."
"What's more exciting," adds Corporal Denise Yifrach, 19, a member of Lachiani's crew, "the crew was all-girl. We conducted a lot of fire missions. It was very satisfying; we felt like we had power in our hands."
"I really love my assignment, it's simply fun. I feel that I'm effective and that I do my duty in the best way. When I told my parents what I'm doing they said that they worry terribly about me, but today they're really happy that I'm content and they support me 100-percent. They're really supportive of me, like everyone who knows me. I'm the only female soldier among my friends who went to combat service and it's really good to know you have behind you people who understand what you're doing and support it."
"Everyone's always coming and asking me, 'how, what and who?'" says Staff Sergeant Lachiani when asked how she feels being a female combat soldier in IDF. "I've already gotten used to it, because it's happened since I enlisted, nearly two and a half years ago. Women don't get easier or different treatment. I think it's the most legitimate and normal thing in the world that we all get equal treatment?. Are there difficulties? The younger of the female soldiers might sometimes complain about things like showers, hygiene, and things like that. I've already gotten used to it."
"We and the boys are equal in everything," approves Corporal Yifrach. "We do everything together, precisely the same missions. They've always pushed us to do the same things the guys do. Whether it's lifting heavy objects or anything else, they've made us feel that we are warriors in every respect."
"Awareness of the integration of women into the army is much higher these days," agrees Staff Sergeant Lachiani. "Today it?s a completely legitimate thing, to the point where even the guys see the girls in equally. There are some who still make a big deal out of it, but those are the minority. Today it's quite accepted."
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=56933.EN
The Hour of the Female Warrior
Sunday 20/08/2006 18:33
IDF Female Warrior. Archive Photo: IDF Spokesperson
The war in Lebanon in the last month was the first conflict in which women served in operational combat roles. They fought shoulder to shoulder and back to back with the men, taking a full and equal part in the fight after steps by IDF to integrate women into its fighting forces. And now, at the moment of truth, the women's sacrifices to the defense of the State of Israel is evident. In the war in Lebanon women filled a wide range of assignments - as regular conscripts, career soldiers, and reservists.
Women serve combat assignments as: Artillerists, anti-aircraft personnel, search-and-rescue personnel, combat pilots, helicopter pilots, sailors, mortar NCOs, and search-and-rescue NCOs.
?in technical assignments as: Mechanics, aircraft mechanics, electricians, and armament officers.
?in field assignments as: Operations officers and sergeants, intelligence officers, look-outs, radio operators, flight controllers, naval command centers, paramedics, and doctors.
?in other assignments connected to the current conflict as: Teachers and counselors in times of emergency on the home front, operators at Homefront Command's telephone center, triage officers, military police with various capacities, and communications officers and NCOs.
"Today it?s a completely legitimate thing"
Staff Sergeant Orna Lachiani, 21, is an example of the integration of women in IDF's array of fighters. "I've commanded launchers for one and a half years," she says. "During the fighting I had command of my [launcher] for a period of about a month. We were in all sorts of places in the north and I can say that they put us to sufficiently broad use. We had more than a few successes. We hit firing points of [Hezbollah] launchers, the launchers themselves, and more."
"What's more exciting," adds Corporal Denise Yifrach, 19, a member of Lachiani's crew, "the crew was all-girl. We conducted a lot of fire missions. It was very satisfying; we felt like we had power in our hands."
"I really love my assignment, it's simply fun. I feel that I'm effective and that I do my duty in the best way. When I told my parents what I'm doing they said that they worry terribly about me, but today they're really happy that I'm content and they support me 100-percent. They're really supportive of me, like everyone who knows me. I'm the only female soldier among my friends who went to combat service and it's really good to know you have behind you people who understand what you're doing and support it."
"Everyone's always coming and asking me, 'how, what and who?'" says Staff Sergeant Lachiani when asked how she feels being a female combat soldier in IDF. "I've already gotten used to it, because it's happened since I enlisted, nearly two and a half years ago. Women don't get easier or different treatment. I think it's the most legitimate and normal thing in the world that we all get equal treatment?. Are there difficulties? The younger of the female soldiers might sometimes complain about things like showers, hygiene, and things like that. I've already gotten used to it."
"We and the boys are equal in everything," approves Corporal Yifrach. "We do everything together, precisely the same missions. They've always pushed us to do the same things the guys do. Whether it's lifting heavy objects or anything else, they've made us feel that we are warriors in every respect."
"Awareness of the integration of women into the army is much higher these days," agrees Staff Sergeant Lachiani. "Today it?s a completely legitimate thing, to the point where even the guys see the girls in equally. There are some who still make a big deal out of it, but those are the minority. Today it's quite accepted."
N
newaecgirl
Guest
bojangles:
If you really want a different perspective here you go. I have been an army musician in the reserves for nine years, and it is probably one of the only trades where there is an equal number of men and women, and I have worked in bands that have more women than men. That said...it is the band so does it really count?
I have just been accepted as an AEC, and I chose to go airforce over army, because I know that at 27, even though I can meet the pt standards they are not my strong suit, and I would not enjoy continuing in an army trade. Having been in the army reserves for some time I have seen women of all shapes and sizes do well in all types of situations. Only you can know what the bottom line for you is, and in the end you have to go with what you want to do...remember this is a career, not a passing fancy. Good luck!
If you really want a different perspective here you go. I have been an army musician in the reserves for nine years, and it is probably one of the only trades where there is an equal number of men and women, and I have worked in bands that have more women than men. That said...it is the band so does it really count?
I have just been accepted as an AEC, and I chose to go airforce over army, because I know that at 27, even though I can meet the pt standards they are not my strong suit, and I would not enjoy continuing in an army trade. Having been in the army reserves for some time I have seen women of all shapes and sizes do well in all types of situations. Only you can know what the bottom line for you is, and in the end you have to go with what you want to do...remember this is a career, not a passing fancy. Good luck!
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Hi there. =)
This may have been asked already, but what's it like for a female in the infantry? I'm positive that I want to apply for the Reserve when my 16th birthday comes around, but I'm a little worried that being 5' 5" and all of 115 lbs will be a disadvantage for me. Are there any problems that I'll have to face being small, young and most of all, female?
I have no problems with working hard to try and excell, but I don't want to have guys helping me in things that I should be able to do, and all that. Thanks.
Susan
This may have been asked already, but what's it like for a female in the infantry? I'm positive that I want to apply for the Reserve when my 16th birthday comes around, but I'm a little worried that being 5' 5" and all of 115 lbs will be a disadvantage for me. Are there any problems that I'll have to face being small, young and most of all, female?
I have no problems with working hard to try and excell, but I don't want to have guys helping me in things that I should be able to do, and all that. Thanks.
Susan
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Susan,
1 - welcome to the forum
2 - try using the user friendly search engine - it really does work
3 - you are no less / no more handicaped than a 5'5" 115lb male.....
within the Reserves there are plenty of women who join. Some stay, some don't. Most start off wanting to prove to themselves (and others) that they can do it.. and take it from there. Many will stick with it for a while and subsequently remuster to another trade like: Clerk, Storeman, Driver, Mechanic, medic, etc, etc......
1 - welcome to the forum
2 - try using the user friendly search engine - it really does work
3 - you are no less / no more handicaped than a 5'5" 115lb male.....
within the Reserves there are plenty of women who join. Some stay, some don't. Most start off wanting to prove to themselves (and others) that they can do it.. and take it from there. Many will stick with it for a while and subsequently remuster to another trade like: Clerk, Storeman, Driver, Mechanic, medic, etc, etc......
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