A Question- Was There A 'Kings Sergeant"?

[Mayhem911]

Hi, I did a search but did not get any hits. I have a great aunt(she may be losing it) who has stated that my great grandfather was anointed a Kings Sergent. I have never heard of this rank before(I'm also no military expert) so I thought I'd through it out there to see if anyone has heard of this before. I will not be surprised if no one has because she is quite old and we think she .......makes things up sometimes. I just figured I'd start my search here. My dad has asked me to find out, he's not soo good with the whole internet thing.

 

[George Wallace]

It is not a rank.  It is an appointment.

You may want to search "Queen's Cpl" or "King's Cpl".

I knew a Queen's Cpl in Gagetown.  He was presented his rank personally by the Queen, and thus the name.  There are legends/myths/truths to the title.  One is that only the Queen can take that rank away from him, no matter what he may do/have done.

(Some may have heard "Groovie Keen Stories".)

 

[retread]

Personally, I have never heard or read of any such thing.  You can try the history section of the Directorate of History and Heritage.  They only accept inquiries by fax or mail.  They ought to know.  The contact information is as follows:

Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH)
National Defence Headquarters
101 Colonel By Dr
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada K1A 0K2

FAX: (613) 990-8579

 

[Old Sweat]

There is an old British army myth regarding soldiers who were promoted by the reigning monarch and thus could not be rebuked or disciplined by anyone else in the change of command. These soldiers were referred to as king's (or queen's) corporals or sergeants. Like many other things, it transferred itself into the Canadian army.

There is no basis in fact for the story, but it is one of those things that persisted like a bad hangover. I first heard of these soldiers while taking recruit training in the RCA Depot in 1958. Given the propensity for rumour, exaggeration and pure male bovine excrement to thrive in the military, it is not surprising that, to create an example out of thin air, everybody in the 'old army' has heard of somebody whose barber's uncle once met a king's sergeant on the London underground. Having said that, there are a very few references to king's corporals from the first half of the nineteenth century, but these were vague and may have been no more than the legend making its way into print.

 

[George Wallace]

Some references:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/history-mid.htm

The history of King's Corporal and Kitchener Sergeant in the Army is known to some, but is frequently the subject of argument. A writer to the Journal of Army Historical Research, 1935, states that the current tradition of the rank was instituted as a reward for gallantry during the South African War and existed during that campaign only. Private soldiers, it is said, once promoted King's Corporal-supernumerary to regimental establishment - could never be reduced except by the King himself.

In the same journal for 1936 a reprint from the Naval and Military Journal quoted the following on the subject of King's Corporal, which apparently was a "mention": "There was an official suggestion in 1901 to the effect that soldiers who had distinguished themselves in war-time, but were unsuited to be NCOs in peace-time, should be given some mark of distinction on the right arm, preferably an embroidered band, carrying with it a step in rank whilst actually on active service, with additional pay, and a donation of £10 at the end of it.

Some members of the War Office Committee who sat to consider the proposal objected to the monetary grant, urging that such was derogatory to the soldier, but one of them pointed out that "Lord Roberts had not hesitated to accept £100,000, so I cannot see why a soldier should object to receive £10." The idea, however, was not adopted, though some men were specially promoted in the field in the latter stages of the Boer War, and were generally known as 'Kitchener Sergeants'."

Many inquiries were made during World War II on the question of King's Corporal, whether it really existed or not. On 22 October 1944 a letter appeared in the London Times referring to the statement made by the Secretary of State for War in the British Parliament on 10 October. It had been asked on what authority Lord Kitchener had promoted a rifleman of the Rifle Brigade to the rank of King's Corporal on 8 December 1901. Other correspondents cited additional instances. The Times writer asked: "Can any authority say what the award is intended to convey to the recipient if it is not recognized in the War Office?" 

During the South African War Australian contingents had King's Corporals and Kitchener Sergeants. It is recorded in official orders that two corporals and a lance-corporal were promoted sergeant and five troopers, a lance corporal and a private were promoted corporal by the Commander-in-Chief for gallantry in the field. These were termed "King's Corporals" and "Kitchener Sergeants" and the promotions were announced in orders under the heading of "mentions", and were published in the London Gazette.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.cs-pa-HTTP%253A%252F%252FWWW.SLV.VIC.GOV.AU%252FARGUS%252F0%252F0%252F3%252FDOC%252FAN003907.SHTML

Photo of a King's Cpl in Australia (Miss Margaret Grady, a King's Corporal, fixing Pte. R. Burnside's sling ...)
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/argus/0/0/3/doc/an003907.shtml  (same, but larger photo)

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=28542/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=15.html

Discusion in ARRSE about "King's Corporal"

http://www.royal-signals.org.uk/apr_2003.php

The King's Corporal (RSM William George Brain)
There is an unusual rank that not many people know about, the so-called King's (or before 1901, Queen's) Corporal or Sergeant, and a rank that was rumoured to be "unbreakable!"

4730 Regimental-Sergeant-Major William George Brain - Who was awarded the Military Cross (London Gazette 28 Dec. 1917) during World War 1, was a trouble maker who made good, and when he wasn't in trouble he was, as he proved at least twice, a very brave man.

He enlisted in 1895 and served in Boer War with the 61st. He was a signaller with the 14th Mounted Infantry and during the disaster at Holland's Spruit he remained behind alone to heliograph for reinforcements. For his heroism he was awarded the King's Corporal in December 1901 only months after Queen Victoria's death, or he would have been a "Queen's Corporal!"

For his gallantry he was promoted to "King's Corporal." and then to Sergeant in 1903. From 1908 to 1911 he was drill instructor at RMA Woolwich. He became Colour-Sgt. "B" Coy. 28th Regt. in 1911 and their RSM in 1914. and as said above he was also awarded the MC in 1917. He was severely wounded on the Somme in WWI. In 1920 he was allotted a new number, as 5172002. He retired in 1922 and became the custodian of the Conservative Club at Gloucester until 1944. After this he lived in Stroud until his death on 9th of December 1962.

 

[Mayhem911]

Wow some of you have actually heard of it. She swears she has a document somewhere referring to him as a Kings Sergent. I though figured I was gonna get ripped about this one. Maybe shes not crazy...lol Anyway thanks for giving me some direction on this one, much appreciated. Hopefully it wont take that long to get some answers, I'll be sure to come back and let you know. I start basic nest week though, so that will slow it down some.
Thanks again everyone!

 

[Mayhem911]

I forgot to mention that he was apparently in the South African War.

 

[Old Sweat]

George,

I checked my book of South African War Honours and Awards and indeed there are promotions to sergeant and corporal in several of Kitchener's Dispatches. I stand corrected. These temporary 'appointments' or 'while so employed' are not the same as was implied by the promotion to corporal or sergeant by the monarch in recognition of a gallant deed. I have only seen a reference to one of those and it occurred in the 1820s or 1830s.

You can be sure that if we had followed this practice in the Canadian army, there would have been a long, detailed order and there would have been a debate over how to adapt the practice to the unified CF.

Mayhem 911, if you can post his name, I will look for its in the book I mentioned earlier in this post. I will also check the casualty roll.

 

[Mayhem911]

Old Sweat that would be great. We're not too sure what name he went by though. It was either Frank Maheux (nickname Sunny) or Xavier Maheux. I also have his service number, I'm not too sure if I'm allowed to post it here or not. I dont know if that would do much for you though since your looking in a book, maybe one of the MOD's could get back to me on that one. No matter what, thanks alot "Old Sweat" I appreciate it.

 

[211RadOp]

Don't know if this is him or not, but found it doing a google search:

Francis-Xavier Maheux, soldier, was born at Quebec City and served in the South African War with the 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles from April to August, 1902. Prior to World War I, Maheux lived at Baskatong Bridge, Que., and worked as a forest ranger. After the outbreak of war he enlisted with the 21st Battalion at Kingston, Ont., in November, 1914, and embarked for Britain in May, 1915, proceeding to France in September. Promoted to sergeant in September, 1916, Maheux was awarded the Military Cross in October of the same year.

He returned to Britain in November, 1917 and was attached to the Canadian Trench Warfare School at Bexhill, England. In August, 1918, he volunteered for service in North Russia with the Canadian Syren Party and was wounded in action in February, 1919. He returned to Britain in April and was discharged in Canada in June of 1919. Maheux worked in Northern Quebec building fire towers until 1928 when he moved with his family to Ottawa to work as a postal clerk. During World War II he served in the Veteran's Guard of Canada from September, 1940 to February, 1941.

 

[retread]

Old Sweat that would be great. We're not too sure what name he went by though. It was either Frank Maheux (nickname Sunny) or Xavier Maheux. I also have his service number, I'm not too sure if I'm allowed to post it here or not. I dont know if that would do much for you though since your looking in a book, maybe one of the MOD's could get back to me on that one. No matter what, thanks alot "Old Sweat" I appreciate it.

Why don't you send Old Sweat the S. No. in a private email?  No need to post it here in a public forum. 

 

[Old Sweat]

If the soldier in question served in the 4th Regiment, Canadian Mounted Rifles in the Boer War, then he did not see action. The unit arrived in country shortly after the war had ended and, except for some who elected to stay in South Africa, returned to Canada as soon as transportation could be arranged.

You can pm me if you wish. Is there any chance he had previous service in South Africa before he enlisted in the CMR? His service record should be available on line through the genealogy section of the Library and Archives Canada website.

 

[Mayhem911]

211 rad op, I must be an idiot. I can not believe I didnt even google him! But ya thats him, our family still has a cottage up in Basketong. Thats crazy. No mention about the "King or Queen cpl/sgt" thing though eh!
Old Sweat I can PM you the service # if it will help.
Thanks 211 Rad, still can not believe I didnt think of that.

 

[retread]

211 rad op, I must be an idiot. I can not believe I didnt even google him! But ya thats him, our family still has a cottage up in Basketong. Thats crazy. No mention about the "King or Queen cpl/sgt" thing though eh!
Old Sweat I can PM you the service # if it will help.
Thanks 211 Rad, still can not believe I didnt think of that.

The award of the MC is a high distinction.  You can probably find the original citation describing the action that led to the award.  It also seesm likely that the confusion over the "King's Sergeant" business may relate to his promotion and decoration about the same time.  There is probably a connection between the two.  I believe the War Museum has the medal rolls for the WWI and WWII.

 

[retread]

Mayhem,

Call these guys and give them the S. No.  They should be able to give you everything available.

Requests for information from a military service file or for a statement of military service should be addressed to Library and Archives Canada at 1-866-578-7777.

 

[JustinM]

Mayhem911 I think we must be related.  I have Frank Maheux's war service medals here at home and 200-300 letter from him to his wife. Check your personal messages and Please contact me.

Justin Maheux