8th Brigade HQs whereabouts on July 9, 1944

[dfuller52]

I am researching a member of the 7th Recce who was part of a contact detachment assigned to the 8th Bde HQ in Normandy. I am trying to pin down his whereabouts on the day he was killed, July 9, 1944. Is there anyone who has a copy of the Brigade records who could tell me where they were that day? I am assuming his team would have stayed closed to the commander, Brigadier K.G. Blackader.

Where, in general, would a Brigade HQ locate itself in a battle? Would they have stayed with one of the regiments (in this case it was the Queen's Own Rifles, the North Shore Regiment and the Regiment de la Chaudiere). At this point, the 8th was at Carpiquet, I believe.

Any tips on where to find this information?

Thanks.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

I am researching a member of the 7th Recce who was part of a contact detachment assigned to the 8th Bde HQ in Normandy. I am trying to pin down his whereabouts on the day he was killed, July 9, 1944. Is there anyone who has a copy of the Brigade records who could tell me where they were that day? I am assuming his team would have stayed closed to the commander, Brigadier K.G. Blackader.

Where, in general, would a Brigade HQ locate itself in a battle? Would they have stayed with one of the regiments (in this case it was the Queen's Own Rifles, the North Shore Regiment and the Regiment de la Chaudiere). At this point, the 8th was at Carpiquet, I believe.

Any tips on where to find this information?

Thanks.

A brigade headquarters would not normally deliberately engage the enemy.  However brigadiers would often attempt to get themselves and their drivers killed to gain an appreciation of the terrain.  Carpiquet was before the breakout in Normandy and the Germans still had effective artillery fire that caused many casualties. The lines were pretty rigid.

The 8th Canadian Infantry Brigade WWII war diaries should be available by interlibrary loan on microfilm from Library and Archives Canada.  Check with them.  I have found one regimental war diary of personal interest on the internet but they seem to be few and far between.

 

[dfuller52]

Thanks Dennis, that is helpful. The 8th was part of the right flank that moved on Caen in the capture of that town on July 8-9 so perhaps the Brigade HQ was moving forward at the time. I will look into the diaries, thanks.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Thanks Dennis, that is helpful. The 8th was part of the right flank that moved on Caen in the capture of that town on July 8-9 so perhaps the Brigade HQ was moving forward at the time. I will look into the diaries, thanks.

If you only need a week there is a good chance they will mail copies to you free of charge.  I've found them quite helpful.  War diaries often lack detail and were sometimes prepared after the fact by an LT who had ticked off the CO.

 

[Michael OLeary]

War diaries often lack detail and were sometimes prepared after the fact by an LT who had ticked off the CO.

And the same CO signed off the result.  Your point?

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

And the same CO signed off the result.  Your point?

Inaccuracies.  They were often too busy fighting a war to record it.  Well researched history often points out discrepencies between war diaries, other corroborating evidences and multiple personal recollections.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Inaccuracies.  They were often too busy fighting a war to record it.  Well researched history often points out discrepencies between war diaries, other corroborating evidences and multiple personal recollections.

None of which has anything to do with being prepared "by an LT who had ticked off the CO", so I guess that was just a gratuitous insult towards officers.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

so I guess that was just a gratuitous insult towards officers.

I was one of those, so says the Queen.  It's just that a chore sometimes meted out as punishment should not always be expected to be done well.  In July 1944 no-one got promoted because of the quality of their paperwork.

 

[Old Sweat]

Without entering into the great war diary debate, I recommend you also try to find copies of ops logs, orders, etc. I suggest you get copies of the war diaries and whatever else the archives have for both 8 Brigade and 7 Recce. Re the individual in question, officer casualties were mentioned by name in war diaries, while NCMs were only recorded by number. 

Dennis, we would appreciate it if you would fill in your profile. This would help us put your comments in context. For example, to state that brigadiers tried to get themselves and their drivers killed is frankly silly. These officers were doing their job by assessing the situation by personal observation. Do you think they could have been more effective by staying in their headquarters and studying a map? And by the way, there were three Canadian army brigadiers killed in action during the Second World War. One died at Hong Kong when the Japanese overran his headquarters. The second was killed in Operation Tractable when his tank (he was commanding an armoured brigade) was hit by anti-tank gun fire as it advanced as part of a general advance. The third died when his jeep ran over an anti-tank mine in the Netherlands. In other words, only one possibly fitted your characterization.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Dennis, we would appreciate it if you would fill in your profile. This would help us put your comments in context. For example, to state that brigadiers tried to get themselves and their drivers killed is frankly silly. These officers were doing their job by assessing the situation by personal observation. Do you think they could have been more effective by staying in their headquarters and studying a map?

I tend to employ a few figures of speech.  I was simply saying that brigadiers did not hole themselves up in brigade HQ.  Even Lieutenant-General Guy Simonds would want to see the terrain to plan an attack and his Staghound had to be flagged down on one at least one occasion to prevent him from crossing into German held ground.  The brother of a good friend was the driver for a survey regiment colonel and his opinion was that the colonel kept trying to get them killed, especially after an 88 round went through their truck tarp without exploding so I actually borrowed the hyperbole.

 

[Haletown]

Another very helpful place is the Wilfred Laurier Center for Mil History.  The have some valuable archives, including an impressive Air Photo one and I recall they have access to the Radio Logs  . . . which are not filled out by Lt Kaka du Jour a month after things happened.

http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/

the staff are great . . .  contact them directly with your questions.

 

[klambie]

Not to be a nit, but based on my research, I've tweaked that statement a bit.  Regardless of who was maintaining the diary, some units were simply better at recording the details than others.

Without entering into the great war diary debate, I recommend you also try to find copies of ops logs, orders, etc. I suggest you get copies of the war diaries and whatever else the archives have for both 8 Brigade and 7 Recce. Re the individual in question, officer casualties were may be mentioned by name in war diaries, while NCMs were only may be recorded by number. 

 

[dfuller52]

There's never a dull moment around here is there. Thanks all for the helpful suggestions. I have ordered microfilm for the WD for this period through my university library. I will also check out WLU's collection.

In the meantime, can anyone tell me if I am correct in assuming that a contact detachment assigned to the Brigade HQ would be travelling with the Brigadier's staff contingent? I am visualizing him (an acting corporal) in a jeep with his officer and four troopers operating their two radio sets and collecting reports from the units in the field. If so, I am thinking he wouldn't have been in a forward area and so might have been killed by artillery fire or a mine or something like that.

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

In the meantime, can anyone tell me if I am correct in assuming that a contact detachment assigned to the Brigade HQ would be travelling with the Brigadier's staff contingent? I am visualizing him (an acting corporal) in a jeep with his officer and four troopers operating their two radio sets and collecting reports from the units in the field. If so, I am thinking he wouldn't have been in a forward area and so might have been killed by artillery fire or a mine or something like that.

A contact detachment would probably have remained at brigade HQ regardless of any absence by the brigadier but anything is possible.  A spare body could have been employed in another capacity during a battle especially if a trained signaller with a spare radio.  Brigade HQ could have been a house, large building, or the back of a truck or number of trucks.  During  a set-piece battle with limited objectives a move would be unlikely.