14 July 2016: +80 dead in truck attack in southern France

[PuckChaser]

ISIL holding ground gives them the appearance of legitimacy. We need to take away that ground. No amount of drone strikes does that. That's kind of where I was going with the analogy.

 

[ModlrMike]

What is the job, exactly? Seems like it is mass deportations, imprisonment or torture of North American citizens without justification.

I think we can pass on that job.

No, this job:

ISIL holding ground gives them the appearance of legitimacy. We need to take away that ground. No amount of drone strikes does that. That's kind of where I was going with the analogy.

 

[The Bread Guy]

ISIL holding ground gives them the appearance of legitimacy. We need to take away that ground. No amount of drone strikes does that. That's kind of where I was going with the analogy.

That said, it seems these guys ...

... have still been pretty busy, even though they've never had a land base, and their "charter boss" sleeps with the fishes ...

... so while bombing ISIS/ISiL back to the Stone Age & beyond may be part of the answer, ISIS/ISIL'll still be able to poke & incite even without its land base, so that bit also has to be solved.

 

[tomahawk6]

Sadly there is not much you can do with the true believers.Until the imams preach against hate and violence the radicals will strike out at unprotected civilian populace.Europe has been invaded by people who seem determined to take control rather than be part of their new country.Time to send them back to their home countries.Just like the Borg the muslims will not assimilate.

 

[AbdullahD]

Sadly there is not much you can do with the true believers.

Can not agree with you more.

Until the imams preach against hate and violence

Until?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=yasir+qashi+on+terrorism&oq=yasir+qashi+on+terrorism&aqs=chrome..69i57.7359j0j4&client=ms-android-bell-ca&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.ca/search?q=imams+against+violence&oq=imams+against+violence&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.6321j0j4&client=ms-android-bell-ca&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.ca/search?client=ms-android-bell-ca&ei=YdOLV_CcOMq6jwOm_47ACA&q=imams+against+terrorism&oq=imams+against+terrori&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.0.0j0i22i30.31209.34438.0.35327.16.16.0.0.0.0.270.2019.1j13j1.15.0.cgmwq...0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..2.14.1746...35i39j0i67j0i20.R4yOfvwT7oY

the radicals will strike out at unprotected civilian populace.

Sadly we agree again
https://markmanson.net/terrorism

Europe has been invaded by people who seem determined to take control

I suppose you mean this?we can barely agree on Ramadan on eid let alone taking over a non-Muslim country...
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-asked-an-expert-how-islamists-could-actually-take-over-the-uk-998

rather than be part of their new country.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/show-these-three-headlines-to-anyone-who-says-british-muslims-dont-integrate--WkVn2_CjZb

http://abuaminaelias.com/obeying-the-law-in-non-muslim-countries/

Time to send them back to their home countries.

Because?
http://www.chicagonow.com/midwestern-muslim/2014/01/muslims-dont-contribute-to-america-think-again/

Just like the Borg the muslims will not assimilate.

No serious comment here.

Abdullah

PS yea it was personal, were would you send me? Wales? Where my grandma was from?

 

[George Wallace]

Just like the Borg the muslims will not assimilate.

They don't have to assimilate.  It would benefit all if they integrate.

 

[tomahawk6]

Divided by a common language we are.So I looked up the words assimilate and integrate.If I were to live in France or Germany I would be expected to learn the language and laws of the host country.

1)assimilation happens to be a process where the ethnic minority loses some of its features and adopts some of the features of the majority to appear like the majority community.

2)Assimilation is an attempt made by ethnic minorities, to adopt the customs and traditions of the majority community so that they become similar to the majority culture.

3)Integration is the process whereby ethnic minorities are absorbed into a majority culture.

 

[George Wallace]

"Integration" is a creature created by our "Multiculturalism" for better or worse.

 

[AbdullahD]

Since the argument being brought is that "Muslims" are not assimilating into Canadian or other western countries. Can someone please explain to me what "Islamic" value or practices are hindering that?

On following laws in non Muslim countries
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/8502

Canadian multiculturalism act
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Multiculturalism_Act

Difference between culture and religion
http://www.differencebtw.com/difference-between-culture-and-religion/

As long as people think "Islam" is the problem, I will object. If people or a person were to realize that many issues they have with the religion do not and should not arise in non-Muslim countries. Also that the disgusting acts that happen within certain cultures are just that and should be removed then I have no issues. Furthermore that many things purported to be "Islamic" are in no way that at all then ill be even more happy.

So what are these "Islamic" things we should lose in order to be in the west? Or is it just cultural stuff?

Lets not demonize the wrong people.

Abdullah

Ps anything that is not obligatory in the sharia that is deemed illegal by a countries legal system is thus also not permissible to do for Muslims doubly so, because our sharia would forbid it. Only time that changes is with obligatory acts like fasting and prayer.

 

[jollyjacktar]

The thing is, Abdullah, that the one's who seem to be yelling the loudest for adoption of Sharia law in places like the UK (for example) also are yelling that the laws of the land shouldn't/don't apply to them as they're not Sharia law as that law trumps the former (the VIA Rail terrorist comes to mind in particular).  Now according to what you're saying, Sharia only is applicable if it doesn't conflict with the law the land in question. 

This results in lots of confusion then.  You're saying not to worry as it must not conflict with the law of the land.  Others are saying the exact opposite, that the law of the land is beneath them and they don't have to pay attention to it, only Sharia.

Then you get, as you describe, cultural practices/beliefs that are not befitting our society here (honour killings for example) and therefore as cultural have SFA to do with Islam, but the participants seem to be Muslims... (the Shafia family of thugs)

So as outsiders, we're getting mixed messages.  We see on one hand someone such as yourself, quietly educating as they go along.  And on the other hand we see the bad apples if you will, who apparently believe they have it correct and everyone else is wrong or the enemy (but, they're not the quiet ones are they?)  I haven't even touched on the Wahabbi SOB's that are acting as agitators amongst the faithful or bastards who commit atrocities like Nice.

Is it any wonder Sharia/Muslims are getting looked at with lots of suspicion by outsiders here in the West?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

So what are these "Islamic" things we should lose in order to be in the west? Or is it just cultural stuff?

Since you ask (and nicely, as usual), Abdullah, I believe you deserve an answer.

So here are the five Islamic things that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has identified in her book Heretic - Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now as being the "five core concepts in Islam that are fundamentally incompatible with modernity" and which need reformation now:

" 1. the status of the Qur'an as the last and immutable word of God and the infallibility of Muhammad as the last divinely inspired messenger;
2. Islam's emphasis on the afterlife over the here-and-now;
3. the claims of sharia to be a comprehensive system of law governing both the spiritual and the temporal realms;
4. the obligation on ordinary muslims to command right and forbid wrong;
5. the concept of jihad, or holy war."

This comes from a modern day muslim, I did not make those up. I am quoting pages 234-235 of her book.

Ball is back in your camp ... so to speak.

 

[YZT580]

I will add one more to the list. Please name, if you can, a single Islamic country that will permit a Muslim to chose to convert to another faith without fear of repercussion.

 

[Remius]

I will add one more to the list. Please name, if you can, a single Islamic country that will permit a Muslim to chose to convert to another faith without fear of repercussion.

That's pretty complicated.  Many of those countries have the death penalty for that kind of thing.  Some have civil implications rather than criminal implications.  I'm pretty sure though that all though are dangerous places to be if you convert regardless of the laws in place. 

this wiki gives a good breakdown.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Note that Bangladesh has no laws against it.  But many religious leaders call for death...

Others have no specific laws against it but have so called "Blasphemy laws" to cover their bases.

 

[AbdullahD]

This is me swearing all sorts of profanities, I just lost a large chunk of what I had written.

Cut, copy, paste and auto save conspired to hinder me on my phone. So I am back to the drawing board (quite annoyed too).

I will answer, just likely tomorrow once I stop mentally swearing (maybe later tonight.. doubt it though).

Abdullah

 

[The Bread Guy]

Ukrainian national/Canadian permanent resident confirmed dead in Nice attack, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42) ...

Days after MacEwan University confirmed one of their students, part of a group studying in Nice, France, was unaccounted for, the Ukrainian Embassy in Ottawa confirmed a citizen of that country had died in an attack in that city.

Late Monday morning, an embassy spokesperson confirmed to CTV News that one Ukrainian citizen died in the July 14 attack where a truck plowed through a crowd out celebrating Bastille Day in Nice. The spokesperson said that individual was studying in Alberta, but could not release his name.

A day after the attack, MacEwan University officials confirmed a group from the MacEwan School of Business – made up of five students and one faculty member – were in Nice participating in a program at the European Innovation Academy.

On Thursday night, students Mykhaylo (Misha) Bazelevskyy and Ismail Khalil were on the Promenade Des Anglais to watch fireworks – and Khalil said he and his classmate were separated when the attack started.

MacEwan officials said Bazelevskyy is a Ukrainian citizen, with permanent resident status in Canada, he was travelling with a Ukrainian passport.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I like the idea of it, although it should be on his grave.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3695834/Furious-mourners-spit-stamp-throw-cigarette-butts-hate-memorial-rocks-rubbish-spot-Nice-truck-terrorist-killed.html#comments

 

[daftandbarmy]

Please stop saying the Nice attacks have nothing to do with Islam

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/

 

[AbdullahD]

Since you ask (and nicely, as usual), Abdullah, I believe you deserve an answer.

So here are the five Islamic things that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has identified in her book Heretic - Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now as being the "five core concepts in Islam that are fundamentally incompatible with modernity" and which need reformation now:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, looks like she is famous for hating on Islam.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-islam-author-ayaan-hirsi-alis-latest-deception

Other people debunking her work
https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/william-eichler/heretics-and-liberals-what-ayaan-hirsi-ali-gets-wrong

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6952412.html

This one touches on the claims made in the heretic
http://thehumanist.com/voices/rules_are_for_schmucks/rules-are-for-schmucks-why-ayaan-hirsi-ali-is-wrong

" 1. the status of the Qur'an as the last and immutable word of God and the infallibility of Muhammad as the last divinely inspired messenger;[/quote]

I am sorry, but she is pretty much saying that Muslims need to leave Islam here in order to fit into western society.. which is ah.. interesting to say the least.

Articles of faith in Islam
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_(concept)

The 5 pillars of Islam
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

A ruling on it
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/29620

This is what Islam is belief that Muhammad is the last Messenger and that the Quran is the word of God. Now if Muslims are arrogantly preaching that then I can see an issue.. but if they respectfully spread this.. I can not see harm.. heck the Latter day saints and the good ole Jehovahs do it already and they dont seem so radical (well actually nvm lol  i kid i kid).

2. Islam's emphasis on the afterlife over the here-and-now;

A description of heaven a two part series

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/11/pleasures-of-paradise-part-1/

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/10/pleasures-of-paradise-part-2/

This life can be measured sadly sometimes in minutes or seconds, other times in years or decades. Whereas our time in the after life will be forever, because we will not die again after we wake (rise/reborn) from our first death. So we consider it silly to put to much focus on the temporary and sacrifice the eternal, but w e must have balance in life because we need to move through this life in a way that is pleasing to Allah to obtain our goals.

A little read on balance in life;
https://islamqa.info/en/105352

So yes we emphasize the afterlife because it is our ultimate goal, but totally giving up trying for things in this life is Haram. We have to be productive and balanced in this life too.

https://islamqa.info/en/103889

This topic didn't seem horribly important to me, I hope i gave it a fair shake... if I didn't let me know and I'll add more. But I considered it silly that this idea needed to be removed in order for Muslims to assimilate in the west, because I have never seen this as part of the issue.

3. the claims of sharia to be a comprehensive system of law governing both the spiritual and the temporal realms;

A fairly thorough definition of Sharia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Sources for Islamic rulings  (aka making the sharia)
https://islamqa.info/en/112268

Now their are things that are covered by Islamic law and the sharia.. and things that are not. There are things that are considered obligatory and things that are considered encouraged or neutral or disliked. The sharia gets a lot of hate, because people misinterpret it and force people to do things (which i may add is forbidden).

I am a believer that the Sharia is comprehensive, but not exhaustive. Ie within the sharia you can find tips for how to get deals suchs as getting three quotes for a price before buying.. but it is not obligatory to follow these guidelines and the sharia wont explain to you why GMC products are so much better then Ford's.

The sharia's main goal is to get everyone to paradise, outside of this main goal there is a lot of lee way. Heck the sharia will teach you sex etiquette but it is hardly obligatory to follow it all lol, so yea it is comprehensive and the more you follow it the closer to God you can become but! You dont need to follow every single thing.

http://www.livingislam.org/n/sexm_e.html
No.. I didn't read it.. lol.

Also I'll add a final note.. the arrogance and pride could be part of the issue here. Ie the sharia is best and all man made law is bad, which is not true at all.. but some Muslims may say that. Any good reforms that non-Muslims make that do not contravene the fundamental obligations of Islam can be incorporated into the sharia if it is beneficial for the people of that time. Because, the sharia changes according to the needs of the people.

4. the obligation on ordinary muslims to command right and forbid wrong;

This one... I dont even see how this is an issue. On one hand non Muslims claim we don't report issues in our communities or stop the evil (forbidding wrong), yet it is an issue for Muslims to be a good part of western society?

I'll try to give this one a fair shake.. but please forgive me if I missed the point (well if I missed the poit on any of these please show me).

Fatawa on the subject it does note that only a group of Muslims need to enjoin good and forbid evil... so right off the bat it shows not all Muslims have to.
https://islamqa.info/en/11403

Muslims can call to good and forbid in many ways, one such way is just by being a good example and someone others want to be like. It doesn't need to be more then that, but if Muslims see crimes committed they should report it, if Muslims see someone doing bad things they can encourage the person to stop it with good words, gifts, etc. It does not need to be physical force, but mind you if a lot Muslims I know see a woman (lets say) being raped and or beat.. we may just use physical force albeit the hadith saying stop it with your hands (close to the meaning) just means to make proactive actions to stop bad acts.

So not all Muslims have to enjoin good and forbid evil, so this one should not be an issue at all. But I personally think they should in what ways they can and be comfortable.

5. the concept of jihad, or holy war.[/b][/i]"

General jihad
https://islamqa.info/en/20214

(Easier read)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/jihad_1.shtml

Some rules of war
http://myjihad.org/prophet-muhammads-rules-of-war/

Now my understanding of military jihad as flawed as it may be (oddly I have been lax in this area of my studies, so please forgive me), is as follows.

Muslims can launch defensive military action against any invading force, which I believe is an accepted action. They can also launch an pre emptive strike if they have solid conclusive information that an army is preparing to invade, which again in my personal opinion is not such a big deal as long as the information is correct and not corrupt.. I think a standard war strategy is not to fight on your homeland if you can avoid it...

Now there are more Islamic rules for military jihad then what was linked, but I think that link will give a good enough idea and show daesh is hardly launching an Islamic Jihad. But within the rules of Islamic war, if a person is residing in an non Muslim country that invades a Muslim country.. they have to leave and go to the invaded country if they feel the need to fight. They can NOT terrorize the invaders from within, that is forbidden, in fact if we ever feel we can not lawfully abide in the country we are staying we HAVE to leave it.

Mufti abu Layth had a wicked good video on Jihad and now I cant find it. He is not like a lot of apologists who say Jihad is only spiritual etc. But my understanding of military Jihad again flawed as it may be is exactly like how Canada or the USA would react in a war situation and because my understanding is that way.. i personally dont feel it needs to be defended or removed for Muslims to integrate or assimilate into Canada.. also me trying to get fit to join the Canadian forces and protect my countrymen in this beautiful land.. is also considered Jihad I hope you guys dont think thats bad...

Now again if I missed something please show me.. I can be awfully dense some times..

This comes from a modern day muslim, I did not make those up. I am quoting pages 234-235 of her book.

Ball is back in your camp ... so to speak.

Well by God I hope I didnt drop the ball. But the general gist was that these issues that Ayaan Hirsi Ali brought up, I don't think are issues for Muslims to integrate or assimilate with the west. Nothing in these points with normal Muslims need to be left behind.

Now having said that groups like daesh, al qaeda etc do have serious issues that make integrating or assimilating impossible, but the things they do that make it impossible to integrate with western society I consider un-Islamic for the most parts.

Now if this author had brought up the fact their is not really one book covering all the issues for Muslims of what they should follow, I'd have to concede to some extent.. because their is not. The legal systems that the four schools of thought have are significantly different, enough so that one comprehensive text on this subject would span many volumes and would be prohibitively expensive. But all four schools of thought have their own books,  which cover all these issues. Yet one set does not exist. But the four madhabs in there unalderated form are not extremist materials, albeit there are corruptions of them out there. We could use more comprehensive education of what Islam teaches, but I hardly think extremists truely care about what Islam actually is. I think no matter what, those wanting to, or those that are acceptable to, being radicalized will find the material anyway they can and that there are other issues that exist that that create radicalization. Then the Sharia and Islam get bastardized to suit their views.

@YZT580 I am not up to date on all the different Muslim countries, let alone the legal systems of each country. So sadly I can not answer that for you, but it looks like Remius covered it for me.

But if you start reading from here, I think my position on it will be fairly clear. Ie I dont think death penalty is a blanket statement or treatment.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/81276.875

Now i can be wrong, but I hope I answered to your level. If not, show me what I missed and Ill give it another go.. but i think ive outlined how Islam needs not leave anything behind in order for Muslims to be a part of the west.

Abdullah

 

[a_majoor]

Please stop saying the Nice attacks have nothing to do with Islam

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/

They all have to do with a radical interpretation of Islam, and a desire to assert themselves over a vastly wealthier and more advanced culture. Sadly, there will be a backlash (the attacks in Germany and the revelations of the large scales of sexual assaults against Germans, Scandanavians and British over the recent past are just more tinder for the fire), and it won't be pretty at all.

 

[George Wallace]

They all have to do with a radical interpretation of Islam, and a desire to assert themselves over a vastly wealthier and more advanced culture. Sadly, there will be a backlash (the attacks in Germany and the revelations of the large scales of sexual assaults against Germans, Scandanavians and British over the recent past are just more tinder for the fire), and it won't be pretty at all.

The claims that such attacks are ISIL inspired by ISIL days after such an event, could just be them claiming responsibility after the fact for a unrelated random event, to inflate their appearance on the world stage.

For instance; what will the claims be coming out of the interweb now that names have been released in this event:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Two men charged in connection to ByWard Market stabbings
CTV Ottawa
Published Sunday, July 17, 2016 12:24PM EDT
Last Updated Monday, July 18, 2016 6:41PM EDT

Two men are charged in relation to one of two of the stabbing incidents over the weekend on William St. in the Byward Market.

26-year-old Mohammed Mohammed and 21-year-old Ali Abbari are charged with aggravated assault with a weapon.

Background

Ottawa Police say six people were injured in two unrelated stabbings in the ByWard Market overnight Saturday.

The first incident took place around 10 P.M. Saturday night at Rideau St. & Waller St. Paramedics say a male victim was stabbed and suffered injuries to the face. He was treated and taken to hospital.

Police are currently looking for a suspect and are asking anyone with information to contact them.

“An unidentified suspect described as a white male in his mid-20’s fled the scene. We’re looking for the public’s assistance to identify the suspect,” said Duty Insp. Sandra McLaren.

A few blocks away emergency crews responded to a second stabbing between a group of men on William St. between George St. & York St. early Sunday around 1:45a.m.

Five people were injured – four of them suffered stab wounds. Police say one person was injured critically but his condition has since been upgraded to stable.

Paramedics say they treated three men in their 20’s on scene before they were transported to hospital.

In this case police say three people were taken into custody. Police say the suspects did not know the victims and the incident was not gang related.

Sunday afternoon police were back on William St. searching manholes near Rideau St. looking for evidence.

Anyone with information from either incident is asked to contact police via Crime Stoppers by calling toll free 1-800-222-8477 or by using Ottawa Police App.

More on LINK.