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13 charged in plots against Michigan governor, police

brihard

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reveng said:
Pretty much my thoughts as well.

I'm also fairly certain that someone (Brihard?) made a post a few years back regarding active shooters (I think it was around the time of the Parliament shooting) that things would be far more difficult if there were multiple subjects who utilized even basic dismounted tactics. The shooters don't need to be rogue Tier 1 masterminds...just some marginalized/pissed off former Marines.

I recall the discussion, and that’s about right.
 

Remius

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reveng said:
Pretty much my thoughts as well.

I'm also fairly certain that someone (Brihard?) made a post a few years back regarding active shooters (I think it was around the time of the Parliament shooting) that things would be far more difficult if there were multiple subjects who utilized even basic dismounted tactics. The shooters don't need to be rogue Tier 1 masterminds...just some marginalized/pissed off former Marines.

Well if movies are any indication it would only take one ex SAS guy to take them out before they launch the VX rockets.  ;D
 

lenaitch

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Jarnhamar said:
Speaking of probes, Rihanna as an alien named Bubble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJbVMN60s9g



Getting backed to the 13 people being charged- the US has a hell of a lot of weapons and firepower.

Some is in the hands of some pretty dumb people (guy who blew up a lawnmower packed full of explosives and blew off his leg).

Some of these people are very well trained.


I know active shooter training is becoming more and more common for LEOs.

I wonder how much training the police (US and Canadian) have in terms of dealing with a small team or squad of shooters.
I'd imagine police are used to being the ones in control. What happens when the police respond to a call expecting a gunman and it's 30 armed militia types or people with training?

Anyone who's acted as enemy force has seen how easy it is to make an *** out of an attacking force when the enemy force doesn't sit there waiting to die or doesn't play by the rules.

My Force implemented IRD (Initial Rapid Deployment) training before I retired several years ago and can only assume it still does, but it is geared toward a small number of members (2-3) responding to an active shooter (school, etc.).  Confronting a group acting with at least a modicum of training or at least a coordinated goal or purpose would be quite different.  No surprise to the military, responding as a team requires training as a team.  Obviously, they have dedicated tactical teams but they are  seldom first responders by virtue of nothing else than geography (3 teams for the province).  They also have Emergency Response Teams which are members who are activated from their regular detachment jobs and who do train as teams.  If a response was lucky enough to have even a few ERT members as part of the initial response it might go better, but the level of coordinated response by regular field personnel against an organized assault is pretty much beyond current capabilities.
 

Weinie

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Remember what one...one unglued guy did in Moncton several years ago. Multiply that by 30 coordinated guys, it could be very ugly.
 

Remius

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Weinie said:
Remember what one...one unglued guy did in Moncton several years ago. Multiply that by 30 coordinated guys, it could be very ugly.


Agreed. But that level of coordination takes planning and time.  And practice.

My guess that all of that would attract attention.

It would be easier to pulll off with a sect/sect minus than with 30 guys. 

Also how do 30 guys, probably from various areas coordinate without detection and how do they even find themselves.  Social media is monitored.  The type of places that would attract those guys would also likely be ministered and quite possible be infiltrated by LE. 

Now, maybe a small to medium family unit with training.  That could be a concern.  Family loyalty can be quite strong as opposed to some guys that likely could care less for each other or would flip on them just as easily as they would flip on their own country.
 

Brad Sallows

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>That one to me was not.

Did you read the PJMedia article?  Primary information - links to video of one of the accused speaking for himself - was easily accessed right there.  (Now two of them speaking for themselves, I gather.)  How does that rate as "credible"?  Better than anonymous sources or politicians speculatively casting blame, at any rate.

The useful thing about basement bloggers is that they have to provide proof; they can't trade on reputation like the major agencies can and simply repeat  claims by others, anonymous or not.
 

mariomike

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lenaitch said:
, but it is geared toward a small number of members (2-3) responding to an active shooter (school, etc.). 

See also,

Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/127478.25.html
7 pages.

This conversation reminds me of the infamous "North Hollywood shoot-out". That was two heavily armed guys versus the LAPD.

Nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the perps and police.

Both perps were killed. 12 police officers and eight civilians were injured.
 

Remius

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Brad Sallows said:
>That one to me was not.

Did you read the PJMedia article?  Primary information - links to video of one of the accused speaking for himself - was easily accessed right there.  (Now two of them speaking for themselves, I gather.)  How does that rate as "credible"?  Better than anonymous sources or politicians speculatively casting blame, at any rate.

The useful thing about basement bloggers is that they have to provide proof; they can't trade on reputation like the major agencies can and simply repeat  claims by others, anonymous or not.

You choose not to believe my basement bloggers and fact checker sites.  I choose not to believe yours.

We are not going to agree on this Brad. There is ample evidence out there that PJ Media is not credible source.  As I said people, are free to take it for what it’s worth. 

Lets let it go so we can stop derailing.  Feel free to have the last word.
 

brihard

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Remius said:
Agreed. But that level of coordination takes planning and time.  And practice.

My guess that all of that would attract attention.

It would be easier to pulll off with a sect/sect minus than with 30 guys. 

Also how do 30 guys, probably from various areas coordinate without detection and how do they even find themselves.  Social media is monitored.  The type of places that would attract those guys would also likely be ministered and quite possible be infiltrated by LE. 

Now, maybe a small to medium family unit with training.  That could be a concern.  Family loyalty can be quite strong as opposed to some guys that likely could care less for each other or would flip on them just as easily as they would flip on their own country.

Best example of this is probably the Bataclan complex attack in France in 2015. 9 terrorists hit multiple targets and killed 137. They were even more effective because of their willingness to fight to the death. Regular police were completely unprepared to deal with the threat, and France had to mount an extensive deployment of specially trained personnel.

Police active threat training is predicated on stopping a threat who wants a body count, not a fight. Change the tactical scenario to one where a small trained element actively wants to fight authorities and it’s gonna suck. Police ERT are generally very good, but the average members on the road aren’t in any way ready for a threat like that. Best case you have a few former combat arms guys on shift who can speak their old language still and get a quick FRAGO out to the rest of the team and the response might be a bit better... but even that’s a crapshoot.

Moncton was referred to above. Significant improvements have been made since then, in particular the widespread issue of C8s and universal IARD training for the RCMP. That situation would not unfold now the same way it did then. But he was also a lone actor with no real training; just a hideous advantage in weaponry.
 

Remius

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To add to what you said about fighting to the death.

These guys and others like them, I think are not willing to go that far.  I’m not sure it’s in the Western Cultural DNA to want to do that.

Seems these guys were looking at kidnapping the Governor.  I’m unclear as to what their actual plan was after they had her and what they thought they could achieve.  An assassination would probably be easier if that was the goal.  But no matter what, smart guys will know that their chances of getting away without getting killed would be very slim.

I don’t think these guys had much of Consolidation plan after they had her.  Not a long term viable one at any rate.

That’s the advantage of guys that will fight until death.  They don’t need to worry about that part.
 

mariomike

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Funny the things you forget, and then remember from these discussions. We had one in Toronto about 35 years ago.

A Royal Regiment of Canada guy used a Hechler-Koch HK-91 .308 semi-automatic rifle against Metro Police.

He fired approximately forty rounds, emptying two twenty-round magazines at the police.

Hit one officer in the ankle. They had to amputate two toes. Shot another officer in the right arm.

Somehow, those two officers managed to kill the perp with their 38s.

Our guys took a third officer to St. Joseph's. But, he died on the way. I don't think he even had a chance to draw.

Not sure how relevant this is to the topic. But, it was an example of what just one shooter could do. I know since then, there have been many more serious examples. But, it was a much different city back then.

 

brihard

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Remius said:
To add to what you said about fighting to the death.

These guys and others like them, I think are not willing to go that far.  I’m not sure it’s in the Western Cultural DNA to want to do that.

Seems these guys were looking at kidnapping the Governor.  I’m unclear as to what their actual plan was after they had her and what they thought they could achieve.  An assassination would probably be easier if that was the goal.  But no matter what, smart guys will know that their chances of getting away without getting killed would be very slim.

I don’t think these guys had much of Consolidation plan after they had her.  Not a long term viable one at any rate.

That’s the advantage of guys that will fight until death.  They don’t need to worry about that part.

They talked about an exfil to Wisconsin, and ‘trying’ her for treason.
 

Brad Sallows

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>Feel free to have the last word.

Sure.  The point which you think is "derailing" goes to the motives of the "13 charged in plots against Michigan governor, police".  Notwithstanding the desire of some - including the governor - to dress them up as white supremacists and/or as people incited by Trump, they are, by the evidence of their own self-expression, not.  The identity of those who find and publish the evidence is irrelevant. 

Those who want to resist and diminish poisonous ideologies first have to be prepared to accept what those ideologies really are, instead of situating the estimate.
 

Remius

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Brihard said:
They talked about an exfil to Wisconsin, and ‘trying’ her for treason.

Once she’s been though the kangaroo court which I assume would would include a summary execution then what?

They aren’t really overthrowing the gvt.  Sympathy would not be in there favour and LE would likely double down on their efforts against these types of groups.  One thing the Americans are good at is going in hard when they get hit.

MTF I guess as we get more info.  Crazy times.
 

reveng

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Remius said:
Agreed. But that level of coordination takes planning and time.  And practice.

My guess that all of that would attract attention.

It would be easier to pulll off with a sect/sect minus than with 30 guys. 

I get that the focus of the discussion seems to be on the size and composition of a potential assault element, but there is also a chance you'd be dealing with some form of support element whether they are operating in the vicinity, or possibly even a mix of close and remote support.

Definitely not brilliant of them to try to raise a 200 man unit or anything of the sort, so I agree that bigger would not be better. Thankfully they didn't seem to think this out worth a damn.
 

Jarnhamar

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Remius said:
Agreed. But that level of coordination takes planning and time.  And practice.

My guess that all of that would attract attention.

Paintball and Airsoft fields come to mind. Online gaming does as well.
 

FJAG

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2 charged in Michigan plots served in US Marines
Associated Press

Detroit – The U.S. Marine Corps confirmed Saturday that two men charged in plots against Michigan’s government spent time in the military.

Officials are “aware of the circumstances surrounding” Daniel Harris and Joseph Morrison and will assist in any way in the investigation, the Marine Corps said in an emailed statement.

Harris is one of six men charged federally with conspiring to kidnap Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer before the Nov. 3 elections. Morrison, 26, is one of seven men charged under the state’s anti-terrorism law for allegedly seeking to storm the Michigan Capitol and ignite a “civil war.” Authorities say he was a founding member of the “anti-government, anti-law enforcement” Wolverine Watchmen.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/10/charged-michigan-plots-served-us-marines/114258130/
 

Remius

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Not shocking.

Some of what they were planning had some semblance of formal training behind it.

 

lenaitch

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mariomike said:
See also,

Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/127478.25.html
7 pages.

Interesting thread.  Thanks for referencing.

I noted the comments on radio communications; both functional limitations and user traffic, particularly during high-volume, dynamic incidents.  This seems to come up in many post mortems of these types of event.  In my experience, police communication protocols leave much to be desired.
 

reveng

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lenaitch said:
Interesting thread.  Thanks for referencing.

I noted the comments on radio communications; both functional limitations and user traffic, particularly during high-volume, dynamic incidents.  This seems to come up in many post mortems of these types of event.  In my experience, police communication protocols leave much to be desired.

And this would be one vector that I would expect more sophisticated threat actors would exploit/leverage to their advantage, among others.
 
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