Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

[Kirkhill]

So....

I have been banging drums about containerized missiles and arctic bases and uncrewed ships as launch platforms - all in terms of the defence of Canada.

And then there is this....

How The Navy's New Very Long-Range AIM-174 Missile Could Pierce China’s Anti-Access Bubble

The AIM-174 is a beast of an air-to-air weapon, but how could it actually be used to maximum effect in a Pacific fight?

www.twz.com

It kinds of breathes new life into something that Wayne Eyre and Anita Anand said at Trenton with respect to IAMD - a long range missile for the Hornets.

I was thinking something along the lines of the AMRAAM family but now.... the SM6 .... a true multi-purpose round.

Even an old F-18 makes a great hot-shot delivery truck to deliver rounds from warehouse to launch point. And we wouldn't have to leave Canadian airspace to bombard Spitzbergen.... And how far into the Pacific littoral can a missile launched from Shemya airspace reach?

The US Army's mid-range solution includes both the SM-6 and the Tomahawk,

US Army’s Mid-Range Capability makes its first deployment in the Philippines for Salaknib

In a historic first, the 1st Multi-Domain Task Force successfully deployed the Mid-Range Capability (MRC) missile system to Northern Luzon, Philippines, on April 11, 2024, as part of Exercise Salaknib

www.usarpac.army.mil

If the F18 can carry the Taurus (1400 kg) it can also carry the Tomahawk (1300 kg).

The AIM-174 version of the SM6 apparently weighs around 860 kg.

....

Back to the RCAF to defend Canada....

 

[Good2Golf]

AIM-*174 doesn’t have the extra booster that makes an SM-3 a ballistic missile killer to 1000km engagement altitude, but it’s not bad. Not sure if the legacy (ie. our A and B models) Hornets have the same loadout for AIM-174s as the Super Hornets.


*Edit to correct the first instance of the missiles name.

 

[Kirkhill]

AIM-164 doesn’t have the extra booster that makes an SM-3 a ballistic missile killer to 1000km engagement altitude, but it’s not bad. Not sure if the legacy (ie. our A and B models) Hornets have the same loadout for AIM-174s as the Super Hornets.

The original hardpoint ratings, and the use of the Taurus by some of the Euros (Swiss and Finns perhaps?) suggest to me the possibility with the SM6 .... but we also never exploited, to my knowledge, the Harpoon capability and I suspect that those wings are like my knees - creaking.

Still,

SM6 - launched from Mk 41 VLS or the Mk 70 PDS on board a ship, on shore, fixed or mobile platforms and from a bomb truck.

So a ship creates a bubble with a limited number of missiles for a short period of time.
An aircraft can create a bubble at short notice anywhere for a short period of time
A land based battery can store a large number of missiles at a given point to create a bubble for a long period of time.
A containerized battery can establish a new battery for a long period of time at short notice.

Still a role for the RRCA in SM6 and Tomahawk - and possibly something like the Valkyrie as a low cost bomb truck.

PS ...

The US Army Mid Range Capability has a range requirement much longer than the published range of the SM6. I believe the range is more in line with the Tomahawk and is somewhere around the 1500 km mark.

I can only assume that the difference is the difference between powered flight, necessary for aerial intercepts, and post-burnout ballistic flights that are sufficient against stationary and slow moving targets like ships.

If the bomb truck is engaging well beyond conventional engagement ranges then it can loft the SM6 and boost it on to a ballistic trajectory.

Hence reaching Spitzbergen from Alert.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I know I will be bombarded by a string of Google links without context and I am not against long-range missiles, but why are you trying to target Spitzbergen from Alert? Alert is at the end of a very long logistical chain. If your Russian grey-zone attack materializes at Spitzbergen then there are places like Thule, Reykjavik, Bodo (and other Norwegian bases) and wherever the USN happens to be that could also target a Russian ship there.

 

[dimsum]

I know I will be bombarded by a string of Google links without context and I am not against long-range missiles, but why are you trying to target Spitzbergen from Alert? Alert is at the end of a very long logistical chain. If your Russian grey-zone attack materializes at Spitzbergen then there are places like Thule Pittufik, Reykjavik, Bodo (and other Norwegian bases) and wherever the USN happens to be that could also target a Russian ship there.

Thule changed its name about 6 months or so ago.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Thule changed its name about 6 months or so ago.

Well, there you go!

 

[Kirkhill]

I know I will be bombarded by a string of Google links without context and I am not against long-range missiles, but why are you trying to target Spitzbergen from Alert? Alert is at the end of a very long logistical chain. If your Russian grey-zone attack materializes at Spitzbergen then there are places like Thule, Reykjavik, Bodo (and other Norwegian bases) and wherever the USN happens to be that could also target a Russian ship there.

No you won't.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I know I will be bombarded by a string of Google links without context and I am not against long-range missiles, but why are you trying to target Spitzbergen from Alert? Alert is at the end of a very long logistical chain. If your Russian grey-zone attack materializes at Spitzbergen then there are places like Thule, Reykjavik, Bodo (and other Norwegian bases) and wherever the USN happens to be that could also target a Russian ship there.

And the GIUK Gap enters the chat. The Navy wouldn't shut up about it in the 80s, of course

The GIUK gap – The chokepoint in Britain’s backyard​

The Soviet Union and its main successor, the Russian Federation, are only the latest competitors that constantly remind the governments in London of the relevance of maintaining relative control of its maritime backyard.

The open waters of the Northern Atlantic Ocean between the landmasses of Greenland, Iceland, and the United Kingdom form the so-called “GIUK Gap”, a naval chokepoint that historically bears a particular relevance for the UK’s strategic approach to continental powers of Europe, particularly in regards to Germany and Russia. During the Cold War, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) put the gap at the centre of its submarine strategy against Soviet incursions into the Atlantic. For the UK, the relevance of the GIUK Gap went beyond containing the Soviets.

The GIUK gap – The chokepoint in Britain’s backyard

The gap between material demands, Government statements, and actual forces can expose any nation to serious security threats.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Kirkhill]

And the GIUK Gap enters the chat. The Navy wouldn't shut up about it in the 80s, of course

The GIUK gap – The chokepoint in Britain’s backyard​

The Soviet Union and its main successor, the Russian Federation, are only the latest competitors that constantly remind the governments in London of the relevance of maintaining relative control of its maritime backyard.

The open waters of the Northern Atlantic Ocean between the landmasses of Greenland, Iceland, and the United Kingdom form the so-called “GIUK Gap”, a naval chokepoint that historically bears a particular relevance for the UK’s strategic approach to continental powers of Europe, particularly in regards to Germany and Russia. During the Cold War, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) put the gap at the centre of its submarine strategy against Soviet incursions into the Atlantic. For the UK, the relevance of the GIUK Gap went beyond containing the Soviets.

The GIUK gap – The chokepoint in Britain’s backyard

The gap between material demands, Government statements, and actual forces can expose any nation to serious security threats.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

I just never understood why we limited ourselves to FOLs in the South.

Why not plan for FOLs/FARPs at Resolute, Eureka and Alert?

Expressions of sovereignty, national support and launch points equivalent to Victoria, Halifax and St John's.

 

[KevinB]

I just never understood why we limited ourselves to FOLs in the South.

Why not plan for FOLs/FARPs at Resolute, Eureka and Alert?

Because Canadians tend to be lazy and cheap when it comes to that.

Expressions of sovereignty, national support and launch points equivalent to Victoria, Halifax and St John's.

The unfortunate side effect of not having a longer vision for a country than beyond the election cycle...

 

[GK .Dundas]

Because Canadians tend to be lazy and cheap when it comes to that.

The unfortunate side effect of not having a longer vision for a country than beyond the election cycle...

It's almost adorable that you think the country has vision that long ...

 

[dimsum]

I just never understood why we limited ourselves to FOLs in the South.

Why not plan for FOLs/FARPs at Resolute, Eureka and Alert?

Expressions of sovereignty, national support and launch points equivalent to Victoria, Halifax and St John's.

There are FOLs in Inuvik, Rankin Inlet, Iqaluit, and Yellowknife.

Canadian NORAD Region Forward Operating Locations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’m guessing the main issues would be getting fuel and supplies up to some of those FOLs, or the runway maintenance for fighters.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think Goose Bay sort of counts…

 

[Kirkhill]

There are FOLs in Inuvik, Rankin Inlet, Iqaluit, and Yellowknife.

Canadian NORAD Region Forward Operating Locations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’m guessing the main issues would be getting fuel and supplies up to some of those FOLs, or the runway maintenance for fighters.

Could you launch temporary FARPs to those locations out of the FOLs?

For rotary wing and STOLs? Hercs and C17s?

Alert already handles the C17s.

Shelter and AVGas and empty ammunition storage that could be filled in a crisis?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Could you launch temporary FARPs to those locations out of the FOLs?

For rotary wing and STOLs? Hercs and C17s?

Alert already handles the C17s.

Shelter and AVGas and empty ammunition storage that could be filled in a crisis?

Assuming the threat justifies it, I assume anything's possible.

Now? No need beyond current commitments it seems....

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

It was recently announced that those FOLs would be enhanced, and Goose Bay is now also considered a FOL. Those FOLs are generally 1,000 miles north of the RCAF fighter bases, so they are absolutely useful in pushing fighter range (and other assets) to the north. They have infrastructure and their capabilities get exercised (CF18s exercised at the Inuvik FOL this past summer).

I think that there can be diminishing marginal returns in northern basing as you get further north. Supplying Alert for current operations is already a major endeavor (BOX TOP).

Operations in the north (and even exercises are really operations) are all about sustainment. How do you get there, how do you survive/operate there (including getting around) without draining local resources. This gets done every year in all seasons (the shoulder seasons can be the toughest). Some of SSE the latest defence update talks about tactical helicopters for the north. There are also plans for Operational Support Hubs with dual-use infrastructure. Resolute Bay is our Arctic Training Centre, and like anywhere with shelter and a runway it can serve as a support hub (and most of the bulk supplies go in by ship in the summer) We have troops training/operating there primarily in the winter.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It was recently announced that those FOLs would be enhanced, and Goose Bay is now also considered a FOL. Those FOLs are generally 1,000 miles north of the RCAF fighter bases, so they are absolutely useful in pushing fighter range (and other assets) to the north. They have infrastructure and their capabilities get exercised (CF18s exercised at the Inuvik FOL this past summer).

I think that there can be diminishing marginal returns in northern basing as you get further north. Supplying Alert for current operations is already a major endeavor (BOX TOP).

Operations in the north (and even exercises are really operations) are all about sustainment. How do you get there, how do you survive/operate there (including getting around) without draining local resources. This gets done every year in all seasons (the shoulder seasons can be the toughest). Some of SSE the latest defence update talks about tactical helicopters for the north. There are also plans for Operational Support Hubs with dual-use infrastructure. Resolute Bay is our Arctic Training Centre, and like anywhere with shelter and a runway it can serve as a support hub (and most of the bulk supplies go in by ship in the summer) We have troops training/operating there primarily in the winter.

We could get volunteers to freeze 'depot ships' into the ice pack, like the good old days

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

We could get volunteers to freeze 'depot ships' into the ice pack, like the good old days

View attachment 88375

Fuel caches are a thing up north.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And the GIUK Gap enters the chat. The Navy wouldn't shut up about it in the 80s, of course

And neither would the Army shut up about the Fulda Gap in those years. To each his gap, I guess.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And neither would the Army shut up about the Fulda Gap in those years. To each his gap, I guess.

And then there's 'track mileage'