Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 301966 times)

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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #550 on: January 26, 2019, 09:43:19 »
You forgot Sweden's A-26,which are being build(1st of 2) as we speak(Oceanic Version) :nod:

And true,first projects that will be started are the 12 MCM ships(replacement Tripartite class,decision probably next month or so,on which design is chosen),Belgium leads in this project,after that (probably in the

next few months also)a decision will be made on which design is chosen to replace the ASW/GP frigates.(Netherlands leads)and will be a class of 4(to start with,possibly an option for 2 more for the

Netherlands),shortly after that(thinking around May),the winning design for the new sub will be chosen,so busy times for the Dutch Navy.

Also an extra CSS(Combat Support Ship) will be build,and joining the Navy around 2021/22(decision has been made about that one)

Basically modernising 3/4 of our Navy.

Thanks I didn't realize the A26 was that far along, delivery scheduled for 2022, just in time to start building new subs for Canada!

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #551 on: January 26, 2019, 10:29:58 »
Unfortunately we 'upgrade' everything, even if that means it costs more in the long run.  We've done it with fighters, MPAs, and are doing it with the Victoria class. 

It is the Canadian way (based off the past "how we've done things" since...when CANEUR closed, or probably even before that!).
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Offline Colin P

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Offline Uzlu

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #553 on: March 01, 2019, 12:20:04 »
Quote
DND extends life of submarine escape suits beyond expiry date as fleet shows its age

Liberals plan to modernize and sail the navy's 4 aging submarines until 2040

The Canadian navy's stock of survival suits, which allow submariners to escape in an emergency from a sunken boat, has been thrown a lifeline after much of the equipment had reached its expiry date, federal documents reveal.

The critical safety suits give stranded crew members the ability to ascend from a depth of 183 metres and protect against hypothermia.

They even inflate into a single-seat life raft once on the surface.

The orange whole-body suits were part of the original equipment aboard the Victoria-class submarines, diesel-electric boats originally built for the Royal Navy and purchased from Britain in the late 1990s.

Documents obtained by CBC News show there was concern among naval engineers, in late 2016, that many of the suits had passed or were about to pass their best-before, safety dates.

A spokeswoman for the Defence Department said a decision was made to extend the life of suits while the federal government procures new ones — a process that is ongoing.

There is no threat to safety, said Jessica Lamirande.

"The service life extension was approved based on successful, rigorous testing at the Naval Engineering Test Establishment on a representative sample of suits that had passed their intended service lives," said Lamirande, in a recent email.

"Testing consisted of detailed visual inspection, leakage tests, and functional testing."

Fleet sailing until 2040

But defence experts say it is a small project that speaks volumes about the Liberal government's plan to modernize and keep operating the four submarines until 2040, a proposal that was articulated in the latest defence policy.

Retired commander Peter Haydon, who also taught defence policy at Dalhousie University in Halifax for years, said keeping submarine replacement parts and equipment in the system has been an ongoing headache for the navy, dating back to the 1980s.

However, the bigger concern is: As the boats age, the strength of their pressure hulls declines.

The  government plans to modernize the boats, but Haydon said that's fine for the electronic and other components.

"You can modernize most things, but you can't modernize the hull, unless you build a new hull," he said.

Pressure to buy new

The Senate and House of Commons defence committees have recommended the government begin exploring options now for the replacement of the submarines, which took years to formally bring into service after they were purchased.

The government, in its response to a committee report last fall, argued it is already fully engaged building Arctic patrol ships and replacements for frigates and supply ships.

Buying new submarines is a topic that has been debated behind the scenes for a long time at National Defence with one former top commander, retired general Walt Natynczyk ordering — in 2012 — a study that looked at the possible replacements.

University of British Columbia defence expert Michael Byers has been quoted as saying he's worried Canada "will lose its submarine capability through negligence rather than design," noting that it is politically more palatable to refurbish the underwater fleet rather than endure a painful procurement process.

"They're running a risk with the lives of sailors, the older these vessels get in an extremely dangerous environment, especially when they're submerged," said Byers, who pointed to the loss of the Argentine submarine San Juan and its crew of 44 in 2017.

"I would be more comfortable with a decision to buy a new fleet submarines than the current path that we're on. I have been skeptical as to whether we need submarines, but better a new fleet than send our sailors to sea in these old vessels."

Since Canada does not have the technology, nor has it ever constructed its own submarines, the federal government would be required to go overseas to countries such as Germany or Sweden to get them built.

Restricted diving

In the meantime, Haydon said he's confident ongoing maintenance and the stringent safety standards among Western allies will keep the Victoria-class submarines in the water and operating safely.

He cautions, however, like Canada's previous submarines retired in the 1990s, the Oberon class, the older the current fleet gets, the more their diving depth will eventually have to be restricted.

As the hull and its valves weaken, the less pressure they can sustain.

Lamirande said the navy has enough escape submarine suits whenever it deploys, and she emphasized it never goes to sea with "expired" equipment.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/submarine-escape-suits-1.5036007

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #554 on: March 01, 2019, 13:07:36 »
I will observe that the Sub Escape Suits are, I believe, a First Level System. 

The inspection and testing that they would have undergone to get recertified and shelf life extended by the Life Cycle technicians would have been very thorough, and any rubber seals found degraded when tested in the durometer would have been redirected into the disposal stream instead of renewing the shelf life on them.

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #555 on: March 01, 2019, 13:31:52 »
The good thing about the sub buy is that they won't be built here. We should buy into another build *cough Aussie, cough* and keep the changes minimal.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #556 on: April 03, 2019, 13:13:08 »
Quote
Fire breaks out aboard hunter-killer submarine drydocked at CFB Esquimalt

https://globalnews.ca/news/5120237/esquimalt-submarine-fire/

This is all bad and all, but what I'm really interested in is this part:

Quote
HMCS Corner Brook has been at the base for an extended docking work period since January 2015, with an expected completion date of 2020.

A 5 year extended work period? How long would it take to build a similar size submarine from scratch? Honestly, I wish I understood what the hell goes on at FMF (and at the same time, for my sanity's sake I'm glad that I don't).
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #557 on: April 03, 2019, 15:23:50 »
https://globalnews.ca/news/5120237/esquimalt-submarine-fire/

This is all bad and all, but what I'm really interested in is this part:

A 5 year extended work period? How long would it take to build a similar size submarine from scratch? Honestly, I wish I understood what the hell goes on at FMF (and at the same time, for my sanity's sake I'm glad that I don't).

Actually I read something online about 2021. Its much easier to repair or overhaul something than paying capital costs for new ones. Any maintenance for submarines is involved and expensive.
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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

كافر

Offline garb811

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #558 on: April 03, 2019, 16:16:46 »
Don't forget there are some unique issues to this one related to hitting the ocean floor...
He's old enough to know what's right
And young enough not to choose it

Offline Lumber

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #559 on: April 03, 2019, 18:15:44 »
Don't forget there are some unique issues to this one related to hitting the ocean floor...

Technically, it hit the ocean side. ;D
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Thumper81

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #560 on: April 03, 2019, 19:12:30 »
FMF has nothing to do with Corner Brook.  That one is all Babcock.


https://globalnews.ca/news/5120237/esquimalt-submarine-fire/

This is all bad and all, but what I'm really interested in is this part:

A 5 year extended work period? How long would it take to build a similar size submarine from scratch? Honestly, I wish I understood what the hell goes on at FMF (and at the same time, for my sanity's sake I'm glad that I don't).

Offline Lumber

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #561 on: April 04, 2019, 07:02:07 »
FMF has nothing to do with Corner Brook.  That one is all Babcock.

Good to know! Thanks. <turns and stares judgingly at Babcock>
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #562 on: December 18, 2019, 14:30:53 »
Quote
'Good life' still left in Canada's submarines, says Navy commander

OTTAWA — Canada’s top sailor says there is still “good life” left in the navy’s submarines and that he expects them to be able to operate until the 2030s.

Royal Canadian Navy commander Vice-Admiral Art McDonald says this can be done with some modest investments, an assertion that comes as the four subs have spent most of the year being docked for extended maintenance.

McDonald says there have already been some upgrades to the vessels as part of normal maintenance and that the navy is now looking at larger improvements to boost their lifespan and make them more accommodating to crew members.

Officials have previously pegged the cost of upgrading the submarines at around $2 billion.

The Conservatives and some experts have been calling on the federal government to buy new submarines to replace the Victoria-class vessels, which Canada purchased secondhand from Britain in 1998.

McDonald also says he is “comfortable” with having only one temporary supply ship to support naval operations overseas, despite another slip in the scheduled delivery of two permanent supply vessels that are being built in Vancouver.
https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/good-life-still-left-in-canadas-submarines-says-navy-commander

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #563 on: December 18, 2019, 19:58:24 »
https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/good-life-still-left-in-canadas-submarines-says-navy-commander

The article clearly shows that having only 4 subs means not being able to have any at all ready to deploy or on station and having to wait 2yrs between missions. This strongly suggests that 7-8 are likely needed, optimally 8-10.
Y

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #564 on: December 18, 2019, 20:14:35 »
The article clearly shows that having only 4 subs means not being able to have any at all ready to deploy or on station and having to wait 2yrs between missions. This strongly suggests that 7-8 are likely needed, optimally 8-10.
The Senate of Canada recommends twelve.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #565 on: December 18, 2019, 20:25:12 »
The article clearly shows that having only 4 subs means not being able to have any at all ready to deploy or on station and having to wait 2yrs between missions. This strongly suggests that 7-8 are likely needed, optimally 8-10.
Y

If we reduce both our surface fleet and out submarine fleet, then yes we can "comfortably operate with one AOR"

Offline Uzlu

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #566 on: December 18, 2019, 20:52:07 »
If we reduce both our surface fleet and out submarine fleet, then yes we can "comfortably operate with one AOR"
Vice-Admiral McDonald may fear a second Resolve-class ship.  What if, after a second Resolve-class ship is ordered, the government of Canada cancels Preserver?

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #567 on: December 18, 2019, 21:23:03 »
The Senate of Canada recommends twelve.

Yes, I remember that report. Twelve would be optimal, spreading accordingly across both coasts. Would love to see us piggyback with someone (Australia?) else and their purchase order. Not sure if the Dutch or the Norwegian subs would be robust enough for our needs. 

I wish some party would just stand up and act like a responsible adult when it comes to our responsibilities within North America and within NATO.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #568 on: December 19, 2019, 00:53:59 »
Vice-Admiral McDonald may fear a second Resolve-class ship.  What if, after a second Resolve-class ship is ordered, the government of Canada cancels Preserver?

That I get, but there is an excellent argument for 3-4 AOR's anyways.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #569 on: December 19, 2019, 08:13:36 »
That I get, but there is an excellent argument for 3-4 AOR's anyways.

If we build 15 CSC and 6 AOPS (forget the Kingston's as I'm pretty sure they don't get re-fueled by the AOR's and the Vics), then there certainly is an excellent argument for 3-4 AOR's.

As recent as 1984 the RCN had a strength of "24 destroyers and frigates, four submarines, 12 mine clearance vessels, three support ships, 18 long range patrol aircraft, 18 medium range patrol aircraft and an unspecified number of maritime helicopters."

Fast forward 35yrs and what do we have - no destroyers, 12 frigates, 4 subs (all in maintenance now and none on patrol or available for patrol), 12 coastal 'defence' ships, 18 long range patrol aircraft (the exact same aircraft listed above), eventually 28 maritime helos and a leased AOR.

So our fleet has been cut by 60%, (during which time our population grew by 50%) and we still have 3 oceans to defend/patrol and we have an emerging threat to our east and a diminished threat to our west.

Why do none of the adults in the political parties bring out the facts during these discussions?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #570 on: December 19, 2019, 09:03:18 »
If we build 15 CSC and 6 AOPS (forget the Kingston's as I'm pretty sure they don't get re-fueled by the AOR's and the Vics), then there certainly is an excellent argument for 3-4 AOR's.

As recent as 1984 the RCN had a strength of "24 destroyers and frigates, four submarines, 12 mine clearance vessels, three support ships, 18 long range patrol aircraft, 18 medium range patrol aircraft and an unspecified number of maritime helicopters."

Fast forward 35yrs and what do we have - no destroyers, 12 frigates, 4 subs (all in maintenance now and none on patrol or available for patrol), 12 coastal 'defence' ships, 18 long range patrol aircraft (the exact same aircraft listed above), eventually 28 maritime helos and a leased AOR.

So our fleet has been cut by 60%, (during which time our population grew by 50%) and we still have 3 oceans to defend/patrol and we have an emerging threat to our east and a diminished threat to our west.

Why do none of the adults in the political parties bring out the facts during these discussions?

The RCN didn't have any long range patrol aircraft in 1984 and still doesn't to this day.  Neither does the RCN have any maritime helicopters; they are RCAF aircraft.

Of the fleet of 18 Aurora's, 14 are still in service and have been upgraded extensively thru ASLEP and AIMP, with Block 4 to begin rolling out to the fleet soon. 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 09:06:07 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #571 on: December 19, 2019, 09:52:06 »
The RCN didn't have any long range patrol aircraft in 1984 and still doesn't to this day.  Neither does the RCN have any maritime helicopters; they are RCAF aircraft.

Of the fleet of 18 Aurora's, 14 are still in service and have been upgraded extensively thru ASLEP and AIMP, with Block 4 to begin rolling out to the fleet soon.

I should have been clearer, my fault, as there wasn't a RCN or RCAF in 1984, but the CAF - Canadian Armed Forces.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #572 on: December 19, 2019, 09:55:01 »
The RCN didn't have any long range patrol aircraft in 1984 and still doesn't to this day.  Neither does the RCN have any maritime helicopters; they are RCAF aircraft.

Of the fleet of 18 Aurora's, 14 are still in service and have been upgraded extensively thru ASLEP and AIMP, with Block 4 to begin rolling out to the fleet soon.

Semantics!  Everyone knows you're just a sailor in blue EITS!




Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #573 on: December 19, 2019, 10:41:37 »
I think there's going to be a meeting in the middle on subs, if anything at all. I doubt the RCN will ever see a 12 sub fleet and 4 is too small. I imagine 7-8 subs will be the max. That's not a bad number, when the Navy has made due with 3 or 4 for decades and it certainly opens up some more options. As for AOR's, my personal feeling is that you can't have too many support/logistics ships. They can be sent on their own to help out an Allied task force, or to a HADR situation, or to serve as part of a RCN operation. A relatively small navy like Germany has something like 11 replenishment vessels, for instance. I don't think that's where the RCN needs to be, but 4 is appropriate.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #574 on: December 19, 2019, 10:50:38 »
Semantics!  Everyone knows you're just a sailor in blue EITS!

But...but...the only sailors that get hotels are submariners when they're alongside.   :'( 
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.