Author Topic: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]  (Read 107795 times)

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Offline Enzo

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2004, 14:00:00 »
Geoff - Interesting you should say that. I used to train at Peterec‘s but my current school schedule conflicts so I‘m on hiatus. Hoping to return in May.

I learned a lot of fun things in the Infantry, I‘ve personally always been big on pressure points and breaking anything I can get my hands on. People don‘t seem to like that. I‘m not a small guy though (6‘4") and I find that avoiding any time on the ground is beneficial, but if I do end up there, then I grapple and use the techniques I mentioned earlier (pressure/break flailing fingers) to put a stop to any horsing around.

I‘ve experimented w/ Ninjitsu & Hun Fut, but for me Kickboxing is my preferred path. I find that taking the hits really wakes you the **** up in the morning. Incorporating grapples and holds balances things out, and don‘t forget to include the satisfaction that comes from taking aggressions (against CFRC?  :D  ) out upon a bag for awhile.
"Most people would rather analyse risks than take them"

Wallace Kaufman

Geoff

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2004, 14:13:00 »
Falcon - 1) that‘s true about gi‘s.  IMO you need to train both for effective self defence.  But you need to train with them at full speed, full contact.  Hence my mentioning of bjj (current) and judo (have trained).

2)  ref? - so you train full out to the death?  A ref is there to a) enforce the rules and b) stop a fight if someone is incapable of defending himself.  Granted in the street you don‘t have that but how precisely do you train more effectively?  Kata, bunkai?

3)  biting and eye gouging works great (as do illegals like small joint locks and grabbing a mans‘s nuts) but do not make the mistake in thinking that many non-tested "fighters" make assuming "hey, I‘ll just poke him in the eye if he wants to throw me."  If you‘ve just been double legged, mounted and have elbows raining down in you‘re face none of those things are any use.  A properly trained fighter knows how to do these things.  Clearly, testing oneself should not include maiming a person but in my experience martial artists who don‘t fight full contact have no idea of what real fights are like... especially against a skilled opponent.

Apologies about the "mysterious" comment.  I see you‘re from T.O.  Plenty of places around to test out you‘re belief systems re: martial arts.  If you‘d like I can reccomend a good, friendly school to test things out at.  *Please note this is no challenge.


Franko - cool about Petawawa.  Good bjj out in Ottawa not too mention some sweet judo and sambo.  If you don‘t mind me asking who are you training with?

Geoff

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2004, 14:21:00 »
Enzo - Peterec‘s guys a super cool.  I‘ve worked doing interviews and commentary for a small show in Edmonton and got a chance to meet Stan and have spend some time with Chris Peak.  Good, tough cats.  I think Chris is about to hit it big in the lhw division.

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2004, 14:34:00 »
No, you misunderstood me.  I don‘t suggest people train to the death, or poke out each others eyes.  I was just high lighting the differences between the real world and UFC. And I already now of some schools. I trained at a ninjutsu club for a year and I plan on going back once I get my finances in order, I also plan on checking out Russain Martials Arts in Thornhill.

Offline Nerf herder

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2004, 14:35:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Geoff:
[qb] Franko - cool about Petawawa.  If you don‘t mind me asking who are you training with? [/qb]
I‘m currently training with a Sensi who is deployed here in Bosnia...he intro‘d me to JJ and I‘m loving it, it‘s just a bit hard on the body.
Don‘t ever remember Shitu-ryu being this hard on me when I was a kid  :D

His Dojo is.......  ;)  Sorry for the smoke effects but I prefer to leave some things private.  ;)

Hope you understand Geoff

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

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Offline gate_guard

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2004, 14:44:00 »
Geoff,
To a certain extent, you are right. As soldiers, if we are resorting to h2h combat, the proverbial crap has hit the fan and something has gone seriously wrong. But also, as soldiers, ignoring the possibility that you may have to choke the enemy to death is dangerous. I take this view for a number of reasons:

1) As soldiers, our job is focused aggression. If we are focused, but not aggressive, we lose and die. If we are aggressive, but not focused, we lose and are dangerous to each other. I find this fundamentally identical to your various forms of real world fighting (ie grappling).

2) As soldiers, we have to prepare for every possibility and examining previous conflicts will show that at times, soldiers had to resort to using their bayonets, helmets, and whatever else came in handy. As I‘m sure you know, street fighting rarely follows a script. Neither does war.

3) As soldiers, we have to be desensitized to killing. It is not in our nature to kill other humans (some may disagree). Which is why militaries have spent millions of dollars learning how they can get their soldiers past the psychology burden of killing. Shooting square targets from 100m out won‘t do this. Getting two troops on a mat fighting it out, short of killing each other, in my opinion is very effective in teaching soldiers that war is not pretty. You may have to end up killing a guy face to face.

4) It‘s great for physical conditioning. Ask the Brits about milling.

With regards to your point that practicing h2h fighting could be dangerous, well our job, by it‘s nature, is hazardous to our health. I can think of dozens of situations in training where I can potentially injure myself (and at times, I have). If I were always concerned with injuring my knee, breaking an arm, or getting cut up, I may as well quit right now. Obviously, a certain level of restraint must be instilled so that we aren‘t just injuring each other.

Again, I‘m not saying the military should drop everything and focus on h2h combat. But it should have it‘s place in training, especially the combat arms.

Geoff

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2004, 14:48:00 »
Franko - no problem.  Totally understand.  Just happy to see someone loving the jits.

Falcon - cool you‘re looking into Sambo (I assume).  My guys (bjj and judo) have always got along really well with Sosnovskikh and team (no one else around so I assume it‘s him or a student of his).  Very good leg locks and really nice guys.

If you‘re in the Thornhill area I highly suggest checking out Shah Franco martial arts.  Shah has been a mentor and a coach of mine for many years and trains everything from professional mma fighters to police hand to hand instructors.
Anyways, getting off topic I suppose.  Cheers.

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2004, 14:55:00 »
It‘s not Sambo, It‘s called Russain Martial Art(s) or The System or Systema.  It is taught by an ex Spetznaz guy, and it is their (Spetznaz) system of fighting.  It‘s tactics look a little weird but, from what I have seen and read they are quite effective and brutal.  If you want to check it out the website is www.russainmartialart.com

Regards

I Live in Scarborough

Geoff

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2004, 14:55:00 »
Interesting points gate guard.  Not being military I‘m not really sure about what the job entails so I was being on the conservative side.  Personally I would love to see mma (+ gi‘s) being taught to the military but I‘m not sure if it‘s because it makes sense or because my love of mma had clouded my vision.

On the JTF video floating around the net you can clearly see them training mma style.

Geoff

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2004, 15:02:00 »
Falcon - I‘ve trained with Systema guys a few times.  Similar to Krav Maga in fashion although I won‘t pretend to know too much about it.  

My advice is to check out a few schools to see what fits you best.  Rebellion martial arts just opened in Scarborough - I highly reccomend trying a class with them.  Biggest mistake I see most guys make is read about things and make their decisions without actually testing the school out.  I‘m out for a while, gotta get back to work.

Offline gate_guard

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2004, 15:36:00 »
Geoff,
You‘d probably be interested in the US Marines program for martial arts. Check out the following link:

 http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2001/n05162001_200105161.html

or go to www.marines.com and nav to "warriors" then "martial arts".

 

Yllw_Ninja

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2004, 16:04:00 »
Anybody have any experience with Muay Thai? I‘ve heard some stuff about it, out of all the martial arts thats the one that clicks with me...and i‘d like to learn it at some point *nods* just wondering how effective it is.

Geoff

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2004, 11:44:00 »
gateguard:  cool link.

Muay Thai is pretty tough stuff and very effective.  It‘s missing the ground game completely but as a striking art it‘s very effective.  Be prepared for lots of swelling and bruising.  Very hard to find a good MT school in Canada but if you can go for it.

Yes Man

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2004, 14:31:00 »
Okay, so I have read a little more about what has been written in this topic and here are things that have to be considered. (note I‘m not in the army yet, and I only have a small bit of marshal arts training.)

You can not compare real fights to fights in UFC.  There are three major reasons for this...

A) In real life there are no weight classes.  That means if a 300lbs infanteer chooses to attack a 160lbs me, I am going to get killed.

B) Real fights are not fought in the ring.  The effects of grappling drop rapidly when not fought on flat ground, and even more so when there are objects near by.  Now this being the army where there are tons of weapons and other object to strike a person with, taking someone to the ground might not be the best idea.

C) The aspect of surprise is a big one in a fight; this is something that does not happen in UFC when both fights know when they start.  If you have the chance to hit someone from behind because you snuck up on them, it is a huge advantage.

Even in a fair fight in a ring there really only seem to be three factors.

A)The size of you opponent.
B)The amount of experience you have in full speed combat. (I find this matters more than the art)
C)The amount of motivation.

Now in the army I imagine motivation would be equal, because it's a fight or die situation.  The size of you opponent is something that you can no change.  This makes the amount of experience you have in full speed combat the only real factor you can control.  For the amount of time and training it would take to get a 130lbs soldier to be able to hold his own against a 250lbs soldier, I think it would not be to practical to teach full courses in hand to hand combat in the army.

This is just my opinion though  :rocket:

crhc

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2004, 00:22:00 »
I have have been a Police officer for 12 yrs. I worked alone for almost 4 yrs in a northern community. I have worked with a street drug unit for three years, executing search warrants.I joined CIC a year ago to help keep kids off crack. I have been in a few fights, defending myself from hands, feet, edged weapons, blunt instruments, firearms and viscious animals. I have been shot at half a dozen times, been assaulted several dozen times, been hospitalized twice, but I never lost a fight. ( Thank GOD !!! )

I have had a fair bit of informal training in differnt forms of karate, Philipine martial arts,  Aikido and some tactical training with entries, containment and killing active shooters ( non-politcal correct ) this is a good background. But balls to the wall not accepting defeat is what gets you by when the day is done. But remembering your training and knowing how to practically apply it will save your butt. Train like you fight and fight like you train.

I believe that CF members ( whose occupation may take them in a hostile area ( and Police officers )do not get  enough training for their own safety. What I mean in firearms training more than a couple times a years and unarmed combat traing more than a couple times a year. This stuff should be instinctive because this saves your life.

tmbluesbflat

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2004, 02:08:00 »
2PPCLI was infiltrated in a rear echelon rest area and fought tooth and nail hand to hand, one cook croaked an enemy with a pot lid, the down and dirty guys live, the rest?

tmbluesbflat

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2004, 02:10:00 »
I forgot to mention this was in Korea at Kap Yong, I‘ve forgotten how to spell it, ****!!!

Offline gate_guard

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2004, 21:10:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by Yes Man:
[qb] (note I‘m not in the army yet, and I only have a small bit of marshal arts training.)
[/qb]
That says it all.

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2004, 22:41:00 »
I‘d still prefer a good old fashioned slogging match in a boxing ring, and I‘ve done a few martial arts (Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Bagua-Zhang, Kendo)

Any other boxers here? Nothing quite like the sweet science when it comes to a brawl.

Offline Nerf herder

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2004, 05:59:00 »
Nothing like beating each other into submission...

Look at Muhamed Ali...a true champ.

Too bad he took one too many shots to the head.

Regards
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords.--Ben Franklin

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
    -Norman Schwartzkopf

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2004, 13:41:00 »
He dragged his career a tad far.

Hopefully I‘ll know when to call it quits.
i ish nawt dain bramaged....

Yes Man

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2004, 01:12:00 »
Quote
Originally posted by gate_guard:
[qb]  
Quote
Originally posted by Yes Man:
[qb] (note I‘m not in the army yet, and I only have a small bit of marshal arts training.)
[/qb]
That says it all. [/qb]
Not to be rude, because I am pretty naive about this stuff, but could you please correct my inaccuracies?

Offline bossi

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2004, 09:27:00 »
Well, since you ask ... it‘s "martial" arts

Martial:
Adjective
1. (of persons) befitting a warrior; "a military bearing".
2. Suggesting war or military life.
3. Or or relating to the armed forces; "martial law".

Etymology: Martial \Mar"tial\, adjective. [French expression, from the Latin expression martialis of or belonging to Mars, the god of war. Compare to March the month.].

Marshal:
Noun
1. A law officer having duties similar to those of a sheriff in carrying out the judgments of a court of law.
2. (in some countries) a military officer of highest rank.

Verb
1. Place in proper rank; of military troops.
2. Arrange in logical order; "marshal facts or arguments".
3. Make ready for action or use; "marshal resources".
4. Lead ceremoniously, as in a procession.

"Marshal" is a name that signifies or is derived from: "a horse", "a servant".


Now, as to the merit of your post and its‘ content - it really didn‘t deserve to be slagged - after all, this is a "discussion" and the presentation of various opinions is encouraged.
But, that‘s just my opinion ...

(and, all I know about hand-to-hand combat is something I was taught a long time ago - if your aim is to kill the other person as opposed to just fighting for fun or sport, they‘ll get the message sooner or later - and, if they‘re not willing to fight to the death, they sometimes decide that fighting you wasn‘t such a good idea ...)
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
-Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883

Yes Man

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2004, 14:47:00 »
I stand humbled.  :o

Offline Marauder

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Re: Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2004, 23:46:00 »
It‘s been mentioned, but remains true nontheless: If you‘re down to just your dukes and Timmy Talibunny without his buddy Kalishnokov, you‘re prolly gonna get ****ed up bad. But if you‘re going down, go down hard. Maximum speed, brutal violence, and unrestrained agression. Take any opening you can and be prepared to get hurt.

On civvy side, the best MMA is Avoid-Fu. Be smart and stay outta situation that could go bad. Like don‘t get dead just because Snake and Ox asked you to stop dancing with their old ladies, and you‘re drunk enough to take exception, and situationally unaware enough to remember you‘re in a biker bar full of Snake and Ox‘s buddies. If that fails and you wind up in the mix, then refer back to speed, violence, agression... you never know what a yahoo who‘s out looking for a fight might be packing. Better tried by twelve, than buried by six, simply because you were worried about Johnny Law when you should have been concerned with the shiv your opponent was carrying and stuck you with after you decided to walk away. If you can‘t avoid the fight or won‘t avoid it, then break the skid and take what comes.
"Lions mustn't concern themselves with the opinions of lambs."