Author Topic: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)  (Read 163122 times)

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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Report: Indigenous military members endure 'systemic' racism
« Reply #325 on: December 22, 2016, 02:08:00 »
I can't help wonder if the response of only 16 of 230 canvased individuals is not a sign that things are not as bad as the report suggests.  I don't doubt racism occurs and I agree all incidents are unacceptable, but I don't see the evidence supporting the conclusion that it is systemic.  I guess the next big investigation will be to confirm or refute this anecdote based report.http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canada-military-indigenous-racism-report-1.3891862

There's approximately 2300 Aboriginal members in the CAF, 230 were canvassed (10%), yet only 16 responded.

While the other 214 either chose not to respond, or did not have the opportunity to respond; it begs the question why wasn't a larger sample size selected?

Could it be that the other 214 saw the survey and said "this is silly"? Or were they afraid to respond because they have been victims of racism and discrimination?

Either way, it's an awfully small respondent group to call anything systematic.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #326 on: December 22, 2016, 05:24:54 »
So, a survey followed by a lawsuit. So surprising.
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Offline beachdown

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #327 on: December 23, 2016, 11:08:28 »
In the link below...1 mbr is aboriginal and the other 2 are Black. Just because a survey was carried out and some people responded, it doesn't mean there isn't systematic racism in the CAF. It's always going to be able to prove when the racism is subliminal i.e. a Caucasian supervisor dealing with a number of minorities.

If this supervisor say grew up in a small town with no exposure to minorities, or was done wrong in the past by a certain minority group, you can't tell me that their judgement dealing with minorities won't be effected by their experience. People are afraid of the unknown/what they don't know....this is a fact!

Yes, we've heard people claim to "just see people as they are and not the colour", but this is just smoke screen.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/three-former-military-members-launch-suit-alleging-systemic-racism-in-forces-1.3215528


Offline beachdown

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Re: 'Systemic' racism in Canadian Forces needs inquiry, veterans say
« Reply #328 on: December 23, 2016, 11:12:51 »
If am hearing you right....stories like this should not be brought to light, but instead be covered up because it doesn't happen here in Canada, and it's only a US, European issue? As much as we will all like to bury our heads in the sand and this we all get along, unfortunately there is a lot of xenophobia and racism here in Canada and most of the time it's carried out by products (kids) of immigrants from way back.

People forget that their parents/grandparents emigrated here from somewhere in the first place.

I wonder if anyone is investigating the media for "Systemic" stupidity for flogging these stories?

Offline beachdown

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #329 on: December 23, 2016, 11:18:54 »
After years of status quo....Toronto joined the ranks of other cities that have a minority as their chief. Vancouver had a Chinese guy as the chief for a while and am sure other cities do as well.

OP...a minority CDS at time soon? Probably won't happen in our lifetime. As you alluded to, nobody is dumb enough these days to go up to someone and show their racist inclination, but the system can be used to hold back minorities from getting ahead in the CAF. I mean what is the number of visible minorities past the rank of MWO or LCol in all the CAF elements?


I don‘t go around with my eyes closed, but personally I have‘nt seen it in a long, long time. If you have proof it‘s happening, act like a soldier, step to the line and report it, don‘t complain about it. If your going to try stir that pot here, you‘ll need a bigger stick!

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #330 on: December 23, 2016, 11:26:55 »
OP...a minority CDS at time soon? Probably won't happen in our lifetime. As you alluded to, nobody is dumb enough these days to go up to someone and show their racist inclination, but the system can be used to hold back minorities from getting ahead in the CAF. I mean what is the number of visible minorities past the rank of MWO or LCol in all the CAF elements?

I'm a visible minority (hence the username - it's a clue to what ethnicity I am) and I don't go around thinking there are glass/bamboo ceilings for us in the military.  Sure, there may not be many CWOs or Flag Officers of visible minority, but perhaps that's because there are fewer visible minorities, and therefore fewer to promote/choose from for senior ranks?  Are you suggesting that we start promoting some to GOFO or CWO level purely on colour - obviously a rhetorical question.

And there has at least been one GOFO - Commodore (ret'd) Hans Jung, former Surgeon General.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: 'Systemic' racism in Canadian Forces needs inquiry, veterans say
« Reply #331 on: December 23, 2016, 11:30:53 »
If am hearing you right....stories like this should not be brought to light, but instead be covered up because it doesn't happen here in Canada, and it's only a US, European issue? As much as we will all like to bury our heads in the sand and this we all get along, unfortunately there is a lot of xenophobia and racism here in Canada and most of the time it's carried out by products (kids) of immigrants from way back.

People forget that their parents/grandparents emigrated here from somewhere in the first place.

What exactly is your agenda? 

Are you a minority who happens to think that ALL WHITES are racists?  If so, that makes you an even bigger RACIST.  Whites do not have a monopoly on racism.  Many minorities are far more racist.

Are you an "Apologist" who thinks that we have to apologize for all the transgressions made by our forefathers five centuries ago?

What exactly is your agenda?
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Offline beachdown

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Re: 'Systemic' racism in Canadian Forces needs inquiry, veterans say
« Reply #332 on: December 23, 2016, 11:40:49 »
....Would you say the same to Jews that went through the holocaust? There is no agenda, I'm just looking at the discussion from transparent angle as oppose to a covert angle. Nobody said "all Whites are racist", this is something you are purporting on here

What exactly is your agenda? 

Are you a minority who happens to think that ALL WHITES are racists?  If so, that makes you an even bigger RACIST.  Whites do not have a monopoly on racism.  Many minorities are far more racist.

Are you an "Apologist" who thinks that we have to apologize for all the transgressions made by our forefathers five centuries ago?

What exactly is your agenda?

Offline Pusser

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #333 on: December 23, 2016, 11:41:53 »
Sure, there may not be many CWOs or Flag Officers of visible minority, but perhaps that's because there are fewer visible minorities, and therefore fewer to promote/choose from for senior ranks? 

In other words, they're in the minority?   ;D
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #334 on: December 23, 2016, 11:43:57 »
In the link below...1 mbr is aboriginal and the other 2 are Black. Just because a survey was carried out and some people responded, it doesn't mean there isn't systematic racism in the CAF. It's always going to be able to prove when the racism is subliminal i.e. a Caucasian supervisor dealing with a number of minorities.
Correct, and it just as equally  doesn't mean there is.  That's the point of those who've bothered trying to respond to you, despite you being 'stuck on send'; probably Caucasian supervisors taking a break from burning crosses on their lawns and pining away for their minority-free small towns.   ::)

There is no agenda, I'm just looking at the discussion from transparent angle as oppose to a covert angle.
:stars:   WTF does that even mean?

Nobody said "all Whites are racist", this is something you are purporting on here
...well except for those Caucasian supervisors, with minority troops.

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #335 on: December 23, 2016, 11:52:15 »
Toronto joined the ranks of other cities that have a minority as their chief. Vancouver had a Chinese guy as the chief for a while and am sure other cities do as well.

Are you comparing Canadian police diversity stats to CAF?

Jul 14, 2016
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/police-diversity-canada-1.3677952

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #336 on: December 23, 2016, 11:57:13 »
....Would you say the same to Jews that went through the holocaust?
Are you suggesting whatever situation you went through is on par with Jews surviving the holocaust?
Quote
There is no agenda
There clearly is even if it's not malicious.
Quote
Nobody said "all Whites are racist", this is something you are purporting on here
You've obviously never read any of the narrative from Black Lives Matter or left-wing politics.

Quote from: Journeyman
:stars:   WTF does that even mean?


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Offline Dimsum

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Re: 'Systemic' racism in Canadian Forces needs inquiry, veterans say
« Reply #337 on: December 23, 2016, 12:00:38 »
There is no agenda, I'm just looking at the discussion from transparent angle as oppose to a covert angle. Nobody said "all Whites are racist", this is something you are purporting on here

From your rant about visible minorities not being able to progress (and the "how many past MWO/LCol are of visible minority") post, I'd say there's a pretty clear agenda. 
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #338 on: December 23, 2016, 12:02:01 »

OP...a minority CDS at time soon? Probably won't happen in our lifetime. . . . . .

Well, since it's been (just about) 15 years since the OP made the comment to which you are now replying and that poster has been gone so long from these means that his info has now been erased from view, perhaps his "lifetime" has now passed.  Is there some specific reason you reached back that far to add comment?

Just to be facetious, didn't we already have a "minority" CDS - Gen Hillier.  As much as we of the Newf persuasion are hailed as good fellows and having the reputation of making good soldiers, there was (and perhaps still is) a lingering impression that we weren't as smart or as well suited for high rank as those Anglophones from regions with less identifiable accents.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #339 on: December 23, 2016, 12:06:16 »
Well, since it's been (just about) 15 years since the OP made the comment to which you are now replying and that poster has been gone so long from these means that his info has now been erased from view, perhaps his "lifetime" has now passed.  Is there some specific reason you reached back that far to add comment?

Yeah - it's called "reaching".
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #340 on: December 23, 2016, 12:36:41 »
Well, since it's been (just about) 15 years since the OP made the comment to which you are now replying
:facepalm:
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #341 on: December 23, 2016, 13:03:09 »
I'm pretty sure our current Defence Minister is a good example of how biased the CF and Canadian culture is against visible minorities i.e., solidly equal opportunity biased.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #342 on: December 23, 2016, 14:14:46 »
Just to be facetious, didn't we already have a "minority" CDS - Gen Hillier.  As much as we of the Newf persuasion are hailed as good fellows and having the reputation of making good soldiers, there was (and perhaps still is) a lingering impression that we weren't as smart or as well suited for high rank as those Anglophones from regions with less identifiable accents.

Just as facetious, the CDS after him was a Ukrainian.   :warstory:
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #343 on: December 23, 2016, 14:22:39 »
Quote
Quote from: recceguy on January 19, 2002, 12:00:00

That's got to be the winningest necropost ever.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #344 on: December 23, 2016, 14:28:59 »
I'm pretty sure our current Defence Minister is a good example of how biased the CF and Canadian culture is against visible minorities i.e., solidly equal opportunity biased.

Reasonably sure being Sikh is a leg up in Vancouver.  ;D But that said, and levity aside- you know better than to put up a straw man like that. There will be anecdotes in either direction. Some of x historically disadvantaged group in the CAF will do quite well, some will do quite poorly. x group might be GLBT, might be people of colour, might be women, whatever.

The CAF reflects society. Society in the past has been systemically racist, and in some ways may well still be. Ipso facto, the CAF has had some issues with same, though in some ways we have sought to be leaders in advancing past that. In nay case, even if we pretended that at this moment there is no longer any racism in the CAF, and if we accept that at some point in the indeterminate past the CAF likely reflected the racism that was systemic in society, then it must follow that there has been an evolution from outright racism towards equality that nonetheless, through improvement not being total and complete, has left some members of those groups subject to some rather terrible treatment. We have already seen a number of accounts come out where members were subjected to racial abuse and where chains of command did not act when their attention was brought to it, despite there being clear service offences committed. I believe in large part that these things happened. This lawsuit would appear to reflect a lot of grievances that are somewhat historical in nature, going back many years, before the possible generational shift that we are in the later stages of at this time and which *I think* is bringing improvements.

I can absolutely guarantee that anyone who says 'this didn't happen' and tries to portray these troops as whiners will end up on the wrong side of history on this one. Our institution moves forward through the painful and public airing of stale, dirty laundry, and we're in a glut of that right now. I would humbly suggest that this may be one of those cases where those of us who have not experienced this discrimination should probably just STFU and listen to those who have. Let the courts be the triers of fact as they're supposed to be, and make sure that we as professionals carry on and continue to be the positive change we want to see within our institution.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #345 on: December 23, 2016, 15:05:22 »
Just as facetious, the CDS after him was a Ukrainian.   :warstory:

Oh, I thought he was of Polish heritage . . . I seem to recall that the Poles made a bit of a fuss over him (as one of their own done good) when he made an official visit there a few years back and they later presented him with one of their orders.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #346 on: December 23, 2016, 15:28:43 »
I think Brihard has a good post. With that said, the issue at hand is: is the CF systemically racist (ie by official or unofficial policy) or does it just contain normal people who fall somewhere on the racism spectrum ( in other words, I will posit that all humans are racist, but is it to degree that really matters in day-to-day social and work interactions?).

I have personally seen no evidence of official policy in my 30 years in the CF that would support the theory that the CF is systemically racist. In actual fact, the organization seems to bend over backwards to accommodate those of different cultures. Merit boards which determine promotions have no method of determining the racial background of the files in front of them- there are no pictures of the candidates.

Now, have I met people within the CF who have displayed unacceptably racist conduct? Yes I have. Sometimes, it has been racism of the thoughtless jokey kind that is nonetheless hurtful and unacceptable. On rare occasion, it has been something worse.

While it is easy to state that there is a zero tolerance for racism, achieving that aim is difficult because we are recruiting indivuals from a broad strata of Canadian society and they bring theirs views, opinions and prejudices into the organization. In a perfect world, we can change those views. In the real world, the most we can hope for is that they not display or act upon inappropriate thoughts and opinions and that they suffer consequences if they do.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #347 on: December 23, 2016, 15:32:11 »
I would humbly suggest that this may be one of those cases where those of us who have not experienced this discrimination should probably just STFU and listen to those who have.

So even though you acknowledge that the lawsuit appears to reflect a lot of past-tense grievances, and that we are likely improving, we should simply cede the argument and allow everyone to be tarred with the same brush?  I disagree  (equally humbly ;) ).

Beachdown has effectively stated that Caucasian supervisors dealing with minorities, or who grew up in a small town, are racist -- subliminally or otherwise; including "it's a fact!" (with exclamation mark, which apparently makes it true).  That very statement is both racist and stupid intellectually unsupported.  If anyone posted a racist comment like "identifiable group x  are lazy thieving drunks... (even with 'it's a fact!',)" they would be well on their way to being banned.

Now, I've never been a proponent of group punishments for crap I never did.  And basing this "fact" on a survey that's even more statistically lame than the Deschamps report is probably what we should expect when no one calls BS.

While I personally have no issues with women, 'people of colour,' GLBT troops in the military, I do  have serious heartache with stupidity.  While I concur that there are legitimate grievances out there, this thread is not remotely supportive of the way ahead.


Edit:  What SKT wrote, only more rabid and  :brickwall:  on my part.    ;)

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #348 on: December 23, 2016, 15:39:18 »
In a perfect world, we can change those views.

Something I remember from over 44 years ago.

That we were recruited from a society with many prejudices.

"I cannot change your beliefs, but if you treat anyone with disrespect, I can change your employment!”

End of lesson. Took about 60 seconds.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #349 on: December 23, 2016, 15:47:02 »
Mario, I freely admit I stole that from you. It is a good method of dealing with workplace misbehaviour.