Author Topic: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]  (Read 191764 times)

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Offline Nomadfl

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Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« on: January 28, 2005, 11:04:35 »
Question # 1, Can you do a Redress of Grievance after retiring?

Question # 2, What is the time limit, if it is possible to Redress a Grievance

Offline garb811

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2005, 12:43:23 »
If you are already retired you cannot submit a redress.   The following is extracted from this: CFAO 19-32
Quote
RELEASE - EFFECT ON COMPLAINTS
8.        Because only an officer or NCM may seek redress, a member must
submit a complaint before the member's release from the Canadian
Forces (CF). However, a former member may, in respect of a
complaint submitted before the member's release, provide additional
information to the redress authority or, after derision by a
redress authority, request that the complaint be considered by the
next higher redress authority. Correspondence relating to a
complaint made by a member who is subsequently released will be
forwarded to the address provided by the former member.

Offline Feral

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2005, 23:15:56 »
http://www.cfga.forces.gc.ca/pubs/contact_e.asp

You can redress the day you are getting out, however once you are retired, that's it, no more chances. The redress process will go on regardless of whether you are in the forces or not. The new streamlined system is supposed to make things faster, with less Authorities in the chain, however often if the initial authority does not act favorably towards you and you pass your greivance up to the final authority (CDS or CF grievance board/adjudicator), you could be waiting quite a while. As in years. As for the time limit, well, you have up to six months, although I'd get started on it much before that if you can. Make sure you get the help of someone who is good at writting memos. A grievance needs to be well worded, and just as importantly, needs to remain respectful. Remember that it may end up in the hands of the CDS.

You cannot grieve after your release, but you can submit one on your last day if you so desire. Check the above link for more info, it's very straightforward and easy to read.

Hope this helps.

Offline Highland Lad

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2005, 00:11:32 »
Actually, under certain certain circumstances, you can request a redress after release (if that grievance is about the circumstances of release). I know this, 'cause I did it... When CFGA agreed that my grievance could be heard, I thought "Hey, if you have to be a member to be able to file for redress, then they have just decided that I am a member, so I must have already won!" (my grievance was that I was released improperly)... Despite that, I lost, but the final decision was that my release was irregular, but still administratively OK... It took them 6 yrs to reach that decision!!! (It did make it all the way up to the CDS) In the end, because of the circumstances of my release (and some screw-ups on my grievance), I was told that I would be able to re-join the Primary Reserve without prejudice, meaning that, as of last week, I have in my hot little hands an offer that, even after all this time, I get to keep my rank and all qualifications and put on the uniform that some pencil-necked twit of a clerk took away from me because he was a lazy little **** (sorry, not the time for a rant...)

BTW, in spite of common usage, a soldier cannot "file a redress". What you are doing in that case is filing a request for redress of a grievance. You have a grievance, and you would like it redressed (solved in your favour). This is one of my pet peeves - improper use of the English language...
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Offline someguyincanada

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2005, 13:48:28 »
when i was doing my redress of grievance, i sent it may 25, it came back june 17, two days before i was suppose to be released, very fast turn around if you ask me...

Offline Nomadfl

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2005, 10:47:26 »
Thanks guys, lot's of good buddys out there to help with information when needed. I am not a virgin when it comes to redresses, I have had 3, one was when my officer commanding gave me "loss of annual leave" as a punishment...overturned by the Comannding Officer of the unit, 2nd was when I redressed a medical order in the 60's to allow vasectomies, my major,and base admin. tried to laugh it off, when it went to the Base Commander, London, people got reprimanded for not processing it in due course. My Dental Officer, a major told the Base Commander, that he was a dental officer and he knew nothing about redresses. The Federal Cabinet made an Order in Council to change that medical order to allow vasectomies...ummm...maybe, I should have got a royalty payment for everyone done in the military. The 3rd and final one was when I redressed a full Col., my Commanding Officer over a travel claim. A temporary duty trip he had sent me on. It was for 2 weeks originally, at the higher rate of POMC, it lasted for 10 weeks, then he wanted to pay me only the lower rate. He took the redress personally, told me it would affect my career, which it did, he stalled the redress, had me austrized in the unit, forbid me to talk with anyone without his personal permission, sent me to Egypt in 74 on 4 days notice, took the other sgt. off the trip and inserted me to get rid of as a punishment. Well thank goodness there were good officers over there, I was attached to a Med Unit, Lt.Col Slavic passed the redress on to Gen. Holmes the Canadian Commander, and it was sent on to the CDS in Ottawa......My Col. in Montreal was told to pay the total claim......I won the battle.....but my career was screwed....would I do it again.....yes.....I got principles....never bag licked in my life.

Can a redress screw up your career.....yes....some people in authority have long memories and close friends at the same rank level......Maybe it's different in the Forces now...I don't know...I retired in 1980

Offline spud

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 21:12:15 »
I have read (several times) the pertinent info on filing a grievance, so if the format/makeup/composition of the grievance is there I have missed it.

Is it supposed to be in the form of a memo? Any ideas? 

Thanks in advance,

Spud

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 21:20:28 »
Memo format with supporting documentation.  At least that's what I used.  Haven't had a reply since Nov 06 when it was forwarded on to the next level (past my CO).  :-\
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Offline 284_226

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 21:21:47 »
The first level grievance authority is always the unit CO; therefore, the document will remain within the unit and should be in the form of a memorandum.  At the IA level and beyond, it becomes service letter format.

In a nutshell, the format is basically:

a) what is being grieved
b) substantiation for why the matter is being grieved
c) requested steps to remedy the matter being grieved.

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 21:36:06 »
Mine was submitted in memo format to the CO, who forwarded it on to the next level with a service letter (composed by the CO, himself) attached. 
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
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Offline 284_226

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 21:47:47 »
Mine was submitted in memo format to the CO, who forwarded it on to the next level with a service letter (composed by the CO, himself) attached. 

Yup, that's right.  When the grievance analyst at the IA level finishes investigating your grievance, they'll send you a disclosure package, which includes their evaluation of the grievance and recommendations.  You'll then have 30 days to make additional comment (in service letter form, because it's sent directly to the IA) before the whole package is sent for adjudication by the IA.

Offline spud

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2007, 22:52:58 »
Yup, that's right.  When the grievance analyst at the IA level finishes investigating your grievance, they'll send you a disclosure package, which includes their evaluation of the grievance and recommendations.  You'll then have 30 days to make additional comment (in service letter form, because it's sent directly to the IA) before the whole package is sent for adjudication by the IA.

PMedMoe and 284_226, thank you for the info, it's a big help.

Spud

Offline geo

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2007, 23:05:37 »
Yup, that's right.  When the grievance analyst at the IA level finishes investigating your grievance, they'll send you a disclosure package, which includes their evaluation of the grievance and recommendations.  You'll then have 30 days to make additional comment (in service letter form, because it's sent directly to the IA) before the whole package is sent for adjudication by the IA.

http://www.cfga.forces.gc.ca/pubs/griev_instruments/manual_e.asp

284-226..........

Disclosure means first ensuring the Grievor receives a copy of the written information that the deciding authority will use to make the decision.

Disclosure will be done when there is additional information that has been obtained from other sources which the grievor has not seen or had a chance to comment on.  If Cpl Bloggins submits a grievance about such and such a thing having been done to him and that this is contrary to regulation such and such........ then there is really no need for disclosure.

which includes their evaluation of the grievance and recommendations.... NO!

Of the 25-30 odd grievances I have handled in the last year.... only truly had to do disclosures once.
Chimo!

Offline 284_226

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2007, 23:31:48 »
http://www.cfga.forces.gc.ca/pubs/griev_instruments/manual_e.asp

284-226..........

Disclosure means first ensuring the Grievor receives a copy of the written information that the deciding authority will use to make the decision.

Disclosure will be done when there is additional information that has been obtained from other sources which the grievor has not seen or had a chance to comment on.  If Cpl Bloggins submits a grievance about such and such a thing having been done to him and that this is contrary to regulation such and such........ then there is really no need for disclosure.

Yes, there is.  At the IA level of most grievances, and at the CDS level (DGCFGA), the investigation isn't done by the actual adjudicator...there are analysts that do the investigation.  They'll seek additional information as required, and make a recommendation based on all the information found.  The additional information and the recommendation are then disclosed to the grievor, who can then address anything disclosed.  That gets sent back to the IA/FA, and one of two things happens.  It gets further investigation, with additional disclosure and opportunity for comment by the grievor, or it gets passed to the adjudicator for decision.

Quote
which includes their evaluation of the grievance and recommendations.... NO!

Every IA/FA grievance I've dealt with (as both a grievor and as an assisting member) has followed this path under the streamlined grievance process, including the one sitting in front of me that's at CDS level.  I just finished making comment on the grievance analyst's investigation and recommendations to the FA.  I suspect that the grievance analyst will have additional commentary, which will be sent back to me again for further comment - and round and round we go until neither of us has anything to add, at which point it goes to the adjudicator.

Quote
Of the 25-30 odd grievances I have handled in the last year.... only truly had to do disclosures once.

Were they all at the CO's level?

Offline geo

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2007, 08:04:34 »
nope........ if you refer to my profile
Chimo!

Offline 284_226

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2007, 10:03:06 »
nope........ if you refer to my profile

Well, all I can tell you is what's supposed to happen.  Whether it does or not where you work is a whole 'nother question.

Is there something I'm supposed to see in your profile, other than the fact that you've had three MOCs and have 35 years service?

Offline Danjanou

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2007, 10:36:01 »
Well, all I can tell you is what's supposed to happen.  Whether it does or not where you work is a whole 'nother question.

Is there something I'm supposed to see in your profile, other than the fact that you've had three MOCs and have 35 years service?

Umm maybe where he works.
NASA spent $12 Million designing a pen that could write in the zero gravity environment of space. The Russians went with pencils.

Offline 284_226

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2007, 11:00:43 »
Umm maybe where he works.

I still don't see a connection here.  He works at LFQA HQ.

According to http://www.agfc.forces.gc.ca/pubs/griev_instruments/manual_e.asp, the IAs are determined by the table at para 14:

Career Administration - DGMC
PER - DGMC
Posting - DGMC
Promotion - DGMC
Release - DGMC
Financial Benefits - DGCB
Medical/Dental - DGHS
Training - Relevant ECS (Environmental Chief of Staff)

....and I don't believe any of those officers hang their hat at LFQA HQ.  LFQA HQ is not even in the "chain" under the streamlined grievance process.

Offline geo

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2007, 12:41:07 »
you forget....
where DMCARM does it for the Regs, the area comander will be an IA in the case of reservists.
Chimo!

Offline 284_226

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2007, 14:27:39 »
you forget....
where DMCARM does it for the Regs, the area comander will be an IA in the case of reservists.

You may well be correct.  There are 4 major IAs, and 47 minor IAs - and I have to assume that some of them are area commanders for reservists.  In the context of the discussion, however, you dismissed the notion that analysts investigate and make recommendations to the IA/FA, when your experience in the matter is limited to how the reservists handle grievances.

In any event, the vast majority of Reg Force grievances that go to the IA/FA level end up going before an analyst, who will carry out an investigation and make disclosure of any new evidence found, as well as their recommendations to the IA/FA.  It may well be that the structure of the reserves allows an individual to be both analyst and adjudicator, but it just doesn't work that way for the Reg Force.

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2007, 15:03:55 »
Yup, that's right.  When the grievance analyst at the IA level finishes investigating your grievance, they'll send you a disclosure package, which includes their evaluation of the grievance and recommendations.  You'll then have 30 days to make additional comment (in service letter form, because it's sent directly to the IA) before the whole package is sent for adjudication by the IA.

Is there supposed to be some point where I am notified it has been received at the next level?  I was told it was hand delivered (mid-November) but for all I know it could be sitting at the bottom of somebody's In basket.  I checked with the grievance process on line and they only have receipt from my CO (which I also have), nothing further.  Unfortunately, I am in Borden on course, and unable to make inquiries in person.  I emailed my supervisor and asked him to check with the CO (or DCO, if necessary).  Guess I just have to wait... ::)
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Offline 284_226

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2007, 15:17:55 »
Is there supposed to be some point where I am notified it has been received at the next level?  I was told it was hand delivered (mid-November) but for all I know it could be sitting at the bottom of somebody's In basket.  I checked with the grievance process on line and they only have receipt from my CO (which I also have), nothing further.  Unfortunately, I am in Borden on course, and unable to make inquiries in person.  I emailed my supervisor and asked him to check with the CO (or DCO, if necessary).  Guess I just have to wait... ::)

You're supposed to get an "Acknowledgement of Receipt" from the IA as soon as it arrives at the IA's office.  From the Grievance Manual:

Quote
16. Once received, the IA formally, in writing, acknowledges the date of receipt of the grievance to the Grievor. If the IA is not the CO of the Grievor, this acknowledgement is sent to the Grievor through the Grievor’s CO.

The written notification could be sitting at your CO's office, awaiting your return from course.  However, since the time limits are so strict on the grievance process now, I would expect that your CO would have made an attempt to notify you, even in your absence from the unit.  Inquiring about it is probably a good idea at this point...

Offline geo

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2007, 20:37:53 »
You may well be correct.  There are 4 major IAs, and 47 minor IAs - and I have to assume that some of them are area commanders for reservists.  In the context of the discussion, however, you dismissed the notion that analysts investigate and make recommendations to the IA/FA, when your experience in the matter is limited to how the reservists handle grievances.

In any event, the vast majority of Reg Force grievances that go to the IA/FA level end up going before an analyst, who will carry out an investigation and make disclosure of any new evidence found, as well as their recommendations to the IA/FA.  It may well be that the structure of the reserves allows an individual to be both analyst and adjudicator, but it just doesn't work that way for the Reg Force.

Huh?.....
DMCARM does not do very much for reservists (at present) though that is liable to change

Submitted by the individual to his CO, the CO will either act on the grievance if he has the power to reverse a decision taken by one of his subordinates... else it is passed on to the next Commander - who should be in a position to reverse the decision being grieved... either the Bde CCmdt or the Area GCmdt...
The GCmdt will pass grievance to the analyst (me) who will review, determine exactly what has been done and what the grievor wants to have done.  We determine the appropriate  rules & regs that apply, if & when necessary, obtain statements from other involved parties (requiring disclosure & oportunitoy for observations here).
Grievance file is analysed and recommedations made to resolve for / against the grievor - submitted to the GCmdt for decision.

The analysis file isn't sent to the grievor though...

The decision is signed off & forwarded to the Grievor (thru his CO), his CO and the appropriate authorities for action.  CO is supposed to explain the decision to the individual - the grievor signs off on having received the decision - after which he can appeal the decision to (DGAGFC )the director general for grievances.
Chimo!

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2007, 20:52:18 »
Since last August (Aug 06) all grievances submitted (regardless of IA) is supposed to be registered with the Director General CF grievance authority

CO has 10 days to receive and forward to IA
IA has 14 days to acknowledge receipt & effect disclosure of documents that may come up and upon which the grievor has not had the chance to comment on - but will be used in making decision. 
Once a possible IA has received & reviewed the grievance, he must obtain a unique number from the Director general for grievances.
IA has 60 days to receive process and decide on grievance - else he has to request an extension... (could be +/- 60 day slices - depending on complexity of greivance & time required for disclosures & observations)
Once the IA has issued his decision, the grievor has 90 days to appeal the decision to the Final authority (DGCFGA).... but once the grievance gets there.... there is no time limit.  I have seen decisions come back after 1, 2 and 3 years - ya gotta be patient & you might as well permit the IA to do his thing.
Chimo!

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Re: Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2007, 21:31:35 »
Huh?.....
DMCARM does not do very much for reservists (at present) though that is liable to change

I didn't claim they did.  I just wasn't aware that reservists were a factor in the discussion.

Quote
Submitted by the individual to his CO, the CO will either act on the grievance if he has the power to reverse a decision taken by one of his subordinates... else it is passed on to the next Commander - who should be in a position to reverse the decision being grieved... either the Bde CCmdt or the Area GCmdt...
The GCmdt will pass grievance to the analyst (me) who will review, determine exactly what has been done and what the grievor wants to have done.  We determine the appropriate  rules & regs that apply, if & when necessary, obtain statements from other involved parties (requiring disclosure & oportunitoy for observations here).
Grievance file is analysed and recommedations made to resolve for / against the grievor - submitted to the GCmdt for decision.

The analysis file isn't sent to the grievor though...

Now there's where things may differ between regs and reserves.  I know firsthand that DMCARM and DGCFGA are disclosing grievance analyses, as I've currently got a 30-odd page analysis here on my desk to which I just sent a response.