Author Topic: Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )  (Read 50635 times)

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Offline Canuck_25(Banned)

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Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )
« on: November 13, 2004, 17:22:54 »
Thanks, Inch
I heard that the average i should aim for in gr.12 is 90%. :o
Is it true?

 Well, if your a visible minority, female or are well active, you coul make it in with an 78% average.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2004, 18:07:37 by Bruce Monkhouse »

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2004, 17:42:20 »
Canuck_25......Where did you get this information?
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline Infanteer

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2004, 21:15:08 »
Canuck25, you obviously failed to read this official board policy.

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,17343.0.html

You've been quite prone to flapping at the gums since you got here.  Consider this a warning; don't give any input on stuff that you know jack crap about....
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Canuck_25(Banned)

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2004, 15:37:58 »
Canuck_25......Where did you get this information?

 Its simple, the forces are desperate for visible minorites and women to join the CF. Their numbers are very low. Same as in the RCMP. White males are constantly applying but visible minorities arent. So, they visit areas where they are a mojority (reserves, urban areas) to encourage recruitment. For example, the CF set a program up at a native reserve near my area to encourage recruitment of the native population. Its simple, the CF wants to be seen as multicultural and they will pass exceptions racaily just like the Universities do for native students and the RCMP. Its a fact and those who have trouble believing it should take a look around.

 

NavyGrunt

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2004, 15:44:00 »
Its true- its a block recruting system- you compete with your peers, not the entire group. Im not sure about your sarcastic tone or the number you quoted but-

(these are the blocks- not an order of ease, not in any particular order)

For the RCMP its -visible minority
                                      female visible minority
                                      female Caucasion
                                      Caucasion male

This is to ensure diverisity in the forces. I dont think its a big deal do your best and you'll have lots of doors open to you.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2004, 16:50:31 by Aaron White »

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2004, 15:44:35 »
No, its not quite that easy there, sunshine. You stated a "fact"....

Well, if your a visible minority, female or are well active, you coul make it in with an 78% average.

..and I asked where you got this "fact", your answer was just a song and dance,and not a good one, so I'll ask again,
Where did you get this information?
IF YOU REALLY ENJOY THIS SITE AND WISH TO CONTINUE,THEN PLEASE WIGGLE UP TO THE BAR AND BUY A SUBSCRIPTION OR SOME SWAG FROM THE MILNET.CA STORE OR IF YOU WISH TO ADVERTISE PLEASE SEND MIKE SOME DETAILS.

Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2004, 15:47:16 »
Canuck 25 I am in the Forces and I don't see that and I have "looked around"

 ::)
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline MissHardie

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2004, 15:50:27 »
Well, if your a visible minority, female or are well active, you coul make it in with an 78% average.

To refute with some anecdotal evidence:
My sister was toying with the idea of attending RMC 2 years back, and was told that despite being female, being active in sports and even teaching martial arts (showing leadership potential) and being fluent in french, since she had a 78% average she'd have to go to St. Jean for a year to prep for RMC.  Her marks were too low to get straight in.  There is, then, a bar you have to meet -- or at least there was 2 years ago.

CivU

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Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2004, 15:59:58 »
It is interesting how a thread intended to help persons interested in entering RMC and/or the ROTP program deteriorated toward a criticism of affirmative action policies subverting the fairness of the CF recuriting process.  Howver, I digress...

It would seem to me Canuck that if you feel adamantly oppossed to the recruiting methods you cite as being used by the RCMP and CF, you should develop some knowledge based on actual affirmative action scholarship.  In many cases, visibile minority status is not seen as a means to enter below the accepted standard, but instead as a tangible skill to be exercised in the work environment.  For example, a native person working in an isolated region of Canada for the RCMP may be better suited to dealing with the policing dynamics of that area due to their similarities with the local population, their cultural background, their experiences in relation to the environment their dealing with.  Hiring a visibile minority in this case would not be to fill a superficially driven quota system but to serve an important purpose.  I'm not going to address the CF as a means to generate an example, but if what you say is true, could the same stream of thought not apply to certain circumstances the Canadian Forces finds itself...

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2004, 19:39:34 »
I don't know about the figure being quoted, but the idea is bang on. It's called a systemic remedy, and was ordered by the Canadian Human Rights Commission in the early 1990's. The CF has seldom, if ever, met it's CHRC mandated recruiting targets for employment equity. Without a doubt, applicants to the CF who fall into this category at the very least are supposed to recieve more expiedited consideration for their applications. There was, at one time, some discussion of a cash incentive for succesful applicants. Good for morale eh? I'll dig up the cases tomorrow and supply the  info. IIRC, the target figure was 14 percent "all inclusive." ;) 
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2004, 19:47:03 »
The entire notion of affirmative action is a load of horseshit.  It is antithecal to the idea of promotion and opportunity based upon merit and it is inappropriate in a democratic society where citizens should be judged "not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character...."
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline bossi

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2004, 20:17:32 »
The entire notion of affirmative action is a load of horseshit...

(hmmm ... hot button, eh?  ... and to think that some people get annoyed when I erupt in emotional outbursts ... chuckle!)
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2004, 20:21:43 »
Not "emotional hot button", just getting straight to the point.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2004, 20:37:53 »
It has its uses, and without it we wouldn't see some of the more positive aspects of diversity [can't think of any right now]  But on the whole, I think it simply feeds into the whole entitlement issue we discussed a few months back. The darkest cloud is as stated by Infanteer, that is to say ... when competency takes a back seat to equity. Infanteer, I gather you do not disfavour equal opportunity, but are opposed to engineered outcomes for the purposes of achieving equality nirvana? LOL.   
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CivU

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2004, 20:41:13 »
"The entire notion of affirmative action is a load of horseshit..."

Before making a hasty generalization perhaps one should identify the two distinct forms of affirmative action.   The one suggested above as a "load of horseshit", in which persons are fast tracked through application processes to fill quotas that are representative of their percentage of the entire population, has been the fundamentally problematic form of affirmative action; however, there exists another facet of affirmative action policy that is difficulty to argue against.

The removal of, or assistance of persons to overcome, barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace are necessary to the establishment of a more egalitarian society.   There can be no doubt that discrimination on the groups of sex and ethnicity have and continue to be factors in the lower wages of women (roughly 75 cents on every dollar a man makes) and the underemployment of qualified but recently immigrated minorities.   Programs that assists persons affected by these obstacles attain an equal footing in the job market are, im my opinon, difficult to argue against.   That being said, generalizing affirmative action as negative often is indicitive of the prevailing attitudes that led to a need for such policy in the first place...

It's up to persons more knowledgable on the recruiting process to determine where CFRG policy fits into these two dynamics.

koach

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2004, 20:45:48 »
CF recruiting has specific programs and methods for exposing aspects of the military to those demographics who would not normally think of the military as a career choice.   These methods are used as an attractions tool only.

When an applicant is ready to be submitted for a job offer, a file is sent to Borden.   This file consists of your transcripts, previous military service (if any), Aptitude test scores, Express Test scores, Medical category, your interview evaluation, and a few other things depending on the entry plan.   That's it!

The enrolment standards for each entry plan DO NOT WAIVER AND ARE NOT BASED UPON ONES RACE.   The only difference in standards is that the fitness requirements are based on gender.

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2004, 20:49:05 »
The removal of, or assistance of persons to overcome, barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace are necessary to the establishment of a more egalitarian society.   There can be no doubt that discrimination on the groups of sex and ethnicity have and continue to be factors in the lower wages of women (roughly 75 cents on every dollar a man makes) and the underemployment of qualified but recently immigrated minorities.   Programs that assists persons affected by these obstacles attain an equal footing in the job market are, im my opinon, difficult to argue against.   That being said, generalizing affirmative action as negative often is indicitive of the prevailing attitudes that led to a need for such policy in the first place...

That's a very flowery definition for a hazy concept that in reality seems to be ill-defined.   Please specify "barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace" and how it pertains to the Military.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2004, 20:54:15 »
      Affimative action has been in the Candaian Forces since 1970 it was called
Francaphone Bypass. Any oldtimers will remeber it well.






            Regards

CivU

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2004, 20:59:59 »
"That's a very flowery definition for a hazy concept for a practice that seems to be ill-defined.   Please specify "barriers that exist within society that favour one group over another in the workplace" and how it pertains to the Military."

I think Koach described the barriers I suggested quite appropriately.   Exposure to the military may be an issue for any number of reasons, be it cultural or geographical.   In areas or ethnic groups of limited engagement with the CF (for lack of a better term) many persons may not even recognize the CF as being an option and oppurtunity.   This may especially be the case for visible minorities (who studies show are often times underemployed for their level of qualifications) who already possess degrees and could enter through DEO, or persons in isolated areas who cannot access a recruiting centre as easily as someone in a more urban area.   In addition, groups largely unrepresented in the CF may not have any influence from family or friends to consider joining, as much as say, a person residing in the maritimes (an area of high CF recruitment) would possibly have.   To seek out and expose the oppurtunities within the CF to a group who may not otherwise consider the military as an option is hardly taking away from someone in a community like Halifax or Edmonton where the presence of the CF is much more distinguishable.

Hopefully that clarifies the matter for you...and as I said before, I didnot intend to specificially discuss its relationship to the CF as much as offer you some insight into the general concept of Affirmative Action that you hastily considered to be entirely "horseshit".

koach

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2004, 21:05:58 »
Quote
The CF does not use recruitment, training or promotion "quotas". Quotas are arbitrary numbers that are met without regard to merit or qualifications. Merit and ability remain the cornerstones of CF recruitment, selection, training and promotion.

The Employment Equity Act does require the CF to set reasonable and achievable representation goals for each designated group under the Act. These are long-term objectives used to measure the organization's progress in attracting and retaining designated group members in the CF.

quote taken from the CF Personnel Newsletter

Another good article on this subject can be found here:

http://www.journalism.ryerson.ca/online/mosaic/ohcan/ssanmiguel.html

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2004, 21:53:03 »
It's up to persons more knowledgable on the recruiting process to determine where CFRG policy fits into these two dynamics.

Sort of ... equality and discrimination are questions of law, and our courts and tribunals have taken the attitude, in the spirit of Lord Denning "I'll be the judge of that!!"  8)

Cheers.
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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2004, 22:05:55 »
Well, this is just ******* great, from the Ryerson article above:

Protecting his country is a duty Pte. Dich takes seriously, even if he doesn't consider himself 100 per cent Canadian.

â Å“I consider myself Chinese first and Canadian second, I guess, because I was brought up in Canada but my roots are Chinese,â ? he says.

This attitude does not surprise Lieut. Tremblay. "We're not like the Americans. We don't call ourselves Americans or Canadians first. We identify a lot by heritage," she says, citing the common use of terms like  French-Canadian or English-Italian as examples.

Does the word Oath mean anything anymore?
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Offline bossi

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2004, 22:46:06 »
Well, this is just ******* great, from the Ryerson article above ...

Ditto.

Quote
... We don't expect people now to just walk into our recruiting centre and sign up voluntarily...

Huh?  WTF???

Quote
... The traditional white male will do that because it's in our culture ...

Hmmm ... what a sexist racist comment ... WASB.
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
-Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883

Dreadnought

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2004, 01:22:31 »
It's funny reading how all you complaining probably aren't from a visible minority.

NavyGrunt

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2004, 05:01:01 »
It's funny reading how all you complaining probably aren't from a visible minority.

Im not complaining. I could care less. I make my own no matter what people say I have to acheive. However I do know an overwhelming number of Vis.Minorities who feel all there acheivements are undermined by the fact that they "only got the job because".....

And outside of that fact- of course the people complaining arent the visible minorities- besides the ones from my above statement, why would they complain?