Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 516037 times)

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Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2000 on: Yesterday at 21:45:05 »
To answer Dlphin_Hunter's question:

Based on the CONOPS I have last seen, the plan is that, whenever they are expected to travel through the ice pack, the AOPS will normally embark a Coast Guard helicopter crew, including Ice Pic.

Otherwise, they are capable of embarking a RCAF Helo det of Cormorant or Cyclone as need be, but it is to be only when specifically required - not as a rule as it would be for the frigates, for instance.

This said, storage and handling of sonobuoy is straightforward and easy. Torpedoes are another matter. it's not enough to have them in a 20 ft container, you also have to have proper handling route and equipment along the whole route to permit their use, including, along the way, a proper space where the weapons tech can work as required on the torp, in a safe environment and with proper safety gear and measures in place: a torpedoe fuel leak can really mess up your day!


I had posted this back in April when asking about the Cormorants being posted on the APOS

Quote from: Czech_pivo on April 12, 2019, 13:21:33
My question was regarding the Cormorants, as I would assume that they would be salt-water capable already.  I know that we are expanding the fleet already, just wondering if some of them could be used inter-changeable on the AOPS, (or even buy another 4-6)? 
I understand that we are going to be hard pressed to have enough CH-148's to go around once the 15 CSC's and the 2/3 JSS/AOR are in place.  I can't imagine the fleet spread across 6 AOPS, 15 CSC's and 2/3 JSS/AOR's.....

I know that the belief is that CCG helo's will be used on the AOPS for ice spotting and such, but do any of them have solid SAR capabilities? If we are going to stick the APOS's all the way up north, I would think that having them capable of solid SAR would be a plus once they are all the way up there.  I mean, let's be honest, taking into consideration the amount of time/money it will take an AOPS  to get from Esquimalt to Tuk, that once on station having a helo with excellent SAR would be beneficial?”

From Chief Engineer -

“No the CH-149 will not fit in the hanger of the AOPV as its longer at 74 ft, to the Cyclones 68ft. The Cyclone has to fold its tail to fit in the hanger while the CH-149 cannot. It is possible that the CH 149 may be able to land on the AOPS flight deck. The concept of ops for the class and the concept of ops with the CCG mentions AOPS could operate with the CH-146 Griffon and the Bell 429 and 412. It appears the type of helo embarked will depend on the type of mission, and CCG could ask for helo support and vice versa. The large carrying capability of the Cyclone could be very attractive to the CCG for supply runs.”

So, I ask, what has changed?

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2001 on: Yesterday at 21:56:19 »

I had posted this back in April when asking about the Cormorants being posted on the APOS

Quote from: Czech_pivo on April 12, 2019, 13:21:33
My question was regarding the Cormorants, as I would assume that they would be salt-water capable already.  I know that we are expanding the fleet already, just wondering if some of them could be used inter-changeable on the AOPS, (or even buy another 4-6)? 
I understand that we are going to be hard pressed to have enough CH-148's to go around once the 15 CSC's and the 2/3 JSS/AOR are in place.  I can't imagine the fleet spread across 6 AOPS, 15 CSC's and 2/3 JSS/AOR's.....

I know that the belief is that CCG helo's will be used on the AOPS for ice spotting and such, but do any of them have solid SAR capabilities? If we are going to stick the APOS's all the way up north, I would think that having them capable of solid SAR would be a plus once they are all the way up there.  I mean, let's be honest, taking into consideration the amount of time/money it will take an AOPS  to get from Esquimalt to Tuk, that once on station having a helo with excellent SAR would be beneficial?”

From Chief Engineer -

“No the CH-149 will not fit in the hanger of the AOPV as its longer at 74 ft, to the Cyclones 68ft. The Cyclone has to fold its tail to fit in the hanger while the CH-149 cannot. It is possible that the CH 149 may be able to land on the AOPS flight deck. The concept of ops for the class and the concept of ops with the CCG mentions AOPS could operate with the CH-146 Griffon and the Bell 429 and 412. It appears the type of helo embarked will depend on the type of mission, and CCG could ask for helo support and vice versa. The large carrying capability of the Cyclone could be very attractive to the CCG for supply runs.”

So, I ask, what has changed?

So welcome back Czech_pivo  its been a while, to answer your question nothing has changed only the Cyclone and smaller helos can be embarked. The hanger didn't grow in size to accommodate the Cormorant.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2002 on: Yesterday at 22:01:50 »
Just a few small points, Chief:

First, the Danes use MU-90 torpedoes. They are electric-waterjet propulsion. onboard batteries are the fuel. We use Mk46. Otto II fuel: very corrosive and very dangerous.

Second, the Danes use the full container as a storage and launching mechanism. The container is not meant to give their helicopters an ASW capability (helicopters which the Knudd-Rasmussen class does not carry as a matter of routine anyway, but can only land on a temporary basis on what is otherwise an open helo deck with no hangar capability).

I am all for thinking outside (or inside, as people wish) the box, but it cannot be done to the detriment of safety.

Please note I am not saying it can't be done, just that as of now, it hasn't been thought through as a possibility and therefore, has not been planned for. There is no doubt that there is enough room onboard the AOPS, you just have to adapt the surroundings for it.


Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2003 on: Yesterday at 22:06:34 »
Just a few small points, Chief:

First, the Danes use MU-90 torpedoes. They are electric-waterjet propulsion. onboard batteries are the fuel. We use Mk46. Otto II fuel: very corrosive and very dangerous.

Second, the Danes use the full container as a storage and launching mechanism. The container is not meant to give their helicopters an ASW capability (helicopters which the Knudd-Rasmussen class does not carry as a matter of routine anyway, but can only land on a temporary basis on what is otherwise an open helo deck with no hangar capability).

I am all for thinking outside (or inside, as people wish) the box, but it cannot be done to the detriment of safety.

Please note I am not saying it can't be done, just that as of now, it hasn't been thought through as a possibility and therefore, has not been planned for. There is no doubt that there is enough room onboard the AOPS, you just have to adapt the surroundings for it.

All I'm saying is its in the realm of possibility and obviously it won't be done in a unsafe manner.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2004 on: Yesterday at 22:12:03 »
Quite agree with you Chief, I am just saying it hasn't been thought through at this point - so it's not in the current plans.

As I said: lots of room for it on the AOPS if they want to do it.

As for the Cormorant, I am pretty sure the Merlin's tails can be folded to fit in Type 23 hangars and I have seen pictures of Italian 101's tail folded onboard the Cavour. Didn't the Cormorants keep that capability? 

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2005 on: Yesterday at 22:17:08 »
Quite agree with you Chief, I am just saying it hasn't been thought through at this point - so it's not in the current plans.

As I said: lots of room for it on the AOPS if they want to do it.

As for the Cormorant, I am pretty sure the Merlin's tails can be folded to fit in Type 23 hangars and I have seen pictures of Italian 101's tail folded onboard the Cavour. Didn't the Cormorants keep that capability?

I checked on that and its a fixed tail, every bit of literature I read on the AOPS does not mention the Cormorant. I'm looking a drawing right now and its very tight in that hanger for a Cyclone. It would be nice getting back to the Torpedoes that we get something a little more user friendly such as the Danish Torpedo to use on the ship if it came to that.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2006 on: Yesterday at 23:04:33 »
We were intended to spend $500M on upgrade kits to bring our Mk 46 to a Mk 54.  Article Link

Canada approached the U.S. last month to buy 425 of the next-generation MK-54 torpedo conversion kits at an estimated cost of $514 million, according to the U.S. State Department.

At roughly $1.2 million apiece, the kits include enhanced guidance systems and improved counter-countermeasures that will convert Canada’s existing arsenal of Cold War-era MK-46 torpedoes into the modern MK-54 configuration.

The Canadian Navy intends to deploy the weapons aboard Halifax-class frigates stationed at CFB Esquimalt and CFB Halifax.

The Air Force would deploy the torpedoes as air-drop weapons from CP-140 Aurora surveillance planes based in Comox, B.C. and Greenwood, N.S., as well as from the new CH-148 Cyclone helicopters based at Shearwater, N.S. and Victoria, B.C.

MK 54 Lightweight Torpedo

The MK 54 program leverages the most modern torpedo technologies from the MK 50 and MK 48 ADCAP (advanced capability) programs. It also utilizes the proven MK 46 warhead and propulsion subsystems.


Looks like otto fuel in the future for the RCN and RCAF.
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Offline Baz

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2007 on: Today at 00:03:21 »
As for the Cormorant, I am pretty sure the Merlin's tails can be folded to fit in Type 23 hangars and I have seen pictures of Italian 101's tail folded onboard the Cavour. Didn't the Cormorants keep that capability?

The main blade fold is a much bigger deal.  It's complex, expensive, heavy, and maintenance intensive.  You'd need a pretty big hangar for a Cormorant or Cyclone rotor.

You don't want to invest the life cycle cost into blade fold "just in case."  I could be wrong, but the CH-149 doesn't, and the pictures I just looked at seem to confirm that.  For comparison, look at a picture of the head if the maritime version compared to a Cormorant.

As for tail fold, don't forget the Cormorant has a ramp and the Merlin doesn't.  I don't think any AW101's have both the ramp and tail fold.

We got lucky with the Cyclone ramp... it wasn't a requirement.  Between that and the utility config it gives some nice flexibility.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #2008 on: Today at 01:35:21 »
I don't know if these requirements made the cuts but as I understand it the AOPS is/was expected to operate a Coast Guard Bell 412 in the ice, an RCAF CH-148 in open water for short durations with limited capabilities, and provide a roost on the open deck for the RCAF CH-149 in domestic waters in support of SAR ops.  The Coast Guard 412 is also expected to supply SAR and light logistics support.

Quote
Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship Helicopter/Ship Interface Requirements Rev 3

Quote
1 INTRODUCTION
1.1 General
This document describes the characteristics and capabilities of the helicopter/ship
interface between the Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships (AOPS) and:
a. Canadian Coast Guard helicopter1,
b. CH-148 Cyclone helicopter, and
c. CH-149 Cormorant helicopter.

Quote
3 CONCEPT OF AOPS HELICOPTER OPERATIONS
3.1 General
Within the limits and restrictions described below, the AOPS shall be capable of:
a. controlling an approaching helicopter,
b. recovering a helicopter to the flight deck,
c. launching a helicopter from the flight deck,
d. controlling a departing helicopter,
e. securing a helicopter on the flight deck, and
f. fuelling a helicopter on the flight deck.

The AOPS shall be capable of HIFR in accordance with CFTO C-12-124-A00/MB-002
Shipborne Helicopter Operating Procedures (SHOPS) (dated 14 May 2008), Section 3 –
Helicopter Fuelling Procedures.
The AOPS shall be capable of VERTREP in accordance with SHOPS, Section 4 –
Vertical Replenishment, Hoist Transfers and Administrative Flights.

3.2 Canadian Coast Guard Helicopter

The AOPS will operate a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter during deployments to the
Canadian Arctic.

The AOPS may operate a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter on occasion during
deployments in other Canadian waters, including: the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific
Ocean, the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes.

The AOPS will employ the Canadian Coast Guard helicopter for:
a. ice reconnaissance,
b. personnel and light cargo transfer between ship and shore,
c. medical evacuation, and
d. Search and Rescue.

The AOPS shall operate Canadian Coast Guard helicopters2:
a. day and night,
b. under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) and Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)3,
c. in seas up to and including the top of Sea State 34,
d. at any ship’s speed,
e. at any relative heading, and
f. at any relative wind over the arc from 30 degrees port to 30 starboard at any speed
up to 355 knots.

The AOPS shall be capable of:
a. moving a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter from the stowed position in the hangar
to the ready position on the flight deck,
b. moving a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter from the landing position on the flight
deck to the stowed position in the hangar,
c. sheltering a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter in the hangar,
d. securing a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter in the hangar,
e. securing a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter on the flight deck, and
f. providing logistical support to a Canadian Coast Guard helicopter.

The AOPS shall provide sufficient protection for one Canadian Coast Guard helicopter
for it to survive the same high sea states experienced by the AOPS.

The AOPS shall provide the facilities and services required to maintain one Canadian
Coast Guard helicopter for deployments of up to 120 days duration, during which the
helicopter is assumed to fly for a total of approximately 150 hours6.

The AOPS shall carry sufficient aviation fuel to support the assumed operational tempo
of one Canadian Coast Guard helicopter.

The AOPS shall be capable of supporting personnel and light cargo transfer by a
Canadian Coast Guard helicopter.

3.3 CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter

The AOPS will support limited operations of a CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter on occasion
and for short periods of time during deployments in the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific
Ocean and in international waters.

Within the limitations described below, the AOPS will employ the CH-148 Cyclone
Helicopter for:
a. sovereignty patrol and enforcement,
b. surveillance in the Canadian Exclusive Economic Zone,
c. delivery of a Naval Boarding Party,
d. support to Other Government Departments,
e. aircrew training for free deck recovery, VERTREP and HIFR,
f. personnel and light cargo transfer,
g. medical evacuation, and
h. Search and Rescue.

The AOPS shall have a flight deck (of size, strength and configuration), flight deck
markings and operational lighting, flight deck tie-downs, sensors, communications and
control systems sufficient for a CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter to land on, and take-off from
an AOPS:
a. day and night,
b. under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) and Instrument Flight Rules (IFR),
c. in seas up to and including the top of Sea State 3,
d. at any ship’s speed, ande. with the ship on any relative heading within the arc defined by ship’s best relative heading for launching and recovering the helicopter ± 30 degrees7.

The AOPS shall be capable of:
a. moving a CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter from the stowed position in the hangar to the
ready position on the flight deck,
b. moving a CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter from the landing position on the flight deck to
the stowed position in the hangar,
c. sheltering a CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter in the hangar,
d. securing a CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter in the hangar, and
e. securing a CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter on the flight deck.

The AOPS shall provide sufficient protection for one CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter for it to
survive the same high sea states experienced by the AOPS.

The AOPS will have a limited ability to support8 the CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter.
In accordance with the AOPS Statement of Operational Requirements, AOPS will not
be fitted with:
a. Canadian Recovery Assist, Secure and Traverse (C-RAST) system9,
b. Mission Preparation and Analysis System (MPAS) or interfaces for MPAS,
c. interfaces with Integrated Vehicle Health, Monitoring System (IVHMS),
d. Air Detachment Room (ADR),
e. comprehensive aviation workshops, or
f. magazines for helicopter launched munitions (except as stated below).

3.4 CH-149 Cormorant Helicopter

The AOPS will provide an emergency flight deck and refuelling service for CH-149
Cormorant Helicopters in support of Search and Rescue missions in Canadian waters.

The AOPS shall have a flight deck (of size, strength and configuration), flight deck
markings and operational lighting, sensors, communications and control systems
sufficient for a CH-149 Cormorant Helicopter to land on and take-off from an AOPS10:
a. day and night,
b. under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) and Instrument Flight Rules (IFR),
c. in seas up to and including the top of Sea State 3, and
d. at ship’s speed and relative heading most conducive to launching and recovering the
helicopter.

The AOPS shall be capable of securing a CH-149 Cormorant Helicopter on the flight
deck.

I believe this draft was issued circa 2010 in conjunction with the original SOR and ConOps.

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