Author Topic: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]  (Read 1057522 times)

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Offline tree hugger

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2005, 15:28:45 »
I understood you.  My post remains...
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Offline Spinaker

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2005, 17:16:30 »
In that case perhaps I'm not quite sure what you are getting at.  Are you saying that it is not possible to take an additional course at your own expense?  I think we've allready established that current policy precludes civvie U candidates from taking out of stream courses on the military's dime and that if they disagree with the policy their only recourse seems to be through the ombudsman's office.
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Offline tree hugger

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2005, 19:20:44 »
If you are attending a civilian university, full time is usually at least 4 courses per semester.  There is a flat rate for full time tuition.  Whether you are taking four or five courses in a semester, you are still full time.  Most programs do have an upper limit as to how many credit hours you can have per semester however, it is generally in the hands of the student to determine how many courses you will take.  It is impossible to be a full time student and then pay extra to be a part time student.
When you're a part-time student you do "pay by the course", however, that's not how it works for a full timer.
Don't believe me?  Try to pay for that fifth course.
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Offline DVessey

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2005, 09:45:12 »
I'm not sure how OPME's work for everyone else(ie/ civi U ROTP, DEO), whether you HAVE to take the RMC courses by correspondence. If the course description is close enough to an OPME, you might have better luck taking it at your university.
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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2005, 10:56:56 »
See at my university, I pay by the course, and it was the same way when I was at college a few years ago. I can't speak for all schools but that's two that go by the course. What if your program requires you to register in 5 courses per semester, and you have taken all the required courses and all the recommended courses that you can fit into your timetable, but you still have an empty slot? Are you required to pay for a course that is outside your area of study even though it's required to maintain your standing in the program?

Offline ACS_Tech

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2005, 15:56:59 »
Hopefully I can get some input from some RMC and civie U UTs.  I'm a prospective UT and I was wondering what the chances are of getting into a civie U vs. RMC.  I plan on applying for AERE or CELE and would like to take Aero Eng, Software Eng or Comp Sci.  I'd prefer not to do RMC because, although I understand UTs don't have to do all the same stuff as ROTP cadets, the courseload is still apparently high.  Aside from that, I feel that I'd be a more successful student at a civilian university. I don't have anything against RMC, mind you.

I'm not headstrong by any means, nor do I buy into the "ringknocker" mentality.  I want to be able to use as much of my time as possible for studying, if I go.  I also have some personal issues (sick wife) that I think might be a little harder to deal with at RMC.

I've casually brought it up with the PSO, but she gets all defensive and says "what's wrong with RMC?"  I don't want to get on her bad side!  If I was offered only RMC (I assume they only offer you one choice) I would take it, it just isn't my personal preference.  Are there any options or ways to better my chances for getting a civie U vs. RMC (for my MOC and degree choices)?  Any thoughts?

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2005, 21:20:17 »
I heard a while back that it was possible to goto university (such as UWO, Carlton or U of T) and do the 4 year degree and then go into the military for 4 years afterwards and have the military pay for University.
I'm not exactly sure if this is how it goes or if this is at all how it is, but I was just wondering if anyone could clarify how one would be able to do university without having to pay and then serving in the military?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2005, 21:26:21 »
Go to your School Guidance Councillor and ask for information on ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan).  Then you can check at a Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre for information on ROTP.  They should be able to give you all the up to date information on CF University Education Programs that you need.
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Offline MC

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2005, 11:11:06 »
The only people I've seen on ROTP that weren't going to RMC are those who have already begun their degree and those who study in fields not offered at Kingston. I'm not sure if its actually possible otherwise.

Offline Meridian

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2005, 23:44:25 »
It definitely is possible, its just not the military's preferred choice.

Offline Glorified Ape

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2005, 16:35:46 »
What about this: You only need 7 classes in your final year but you have to take 8/year to be considered full time (4 per semester). So you sign up for 8 classes (an extra elective over what's needed to graduate). The ROTP regs say you can't be part time, you have to be full time but from what I hear here, you can't take superfluous courses. That being said, it would cost more to take 3 classes as a part-timer than 4 classes as a full timer since they charge you more per course if you're part-time.
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Offline Meridian

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2005, 18:41:48 »
Piper:

Thats because they keep the RMC kids together, generally. *Sigh*.

The military's preferred choice is to have you attend RMC, where  you get the total experience. ROTP Civy U and ROTP RMC is NOT the same, just as JROTC and Westpoint/Annapolis/etc are not the same experiences.  In fact, I tend to think JROTC is a better experience than ROTP Civy U.

That said, Civy U ROTP is an excellent option for those who want to stay home/get their degree from a university that has a better reputation for that program, etc.

From what I understand, was told by staff, and saw on courses, Civy U had significant enrollment, but is generally only filled by upper year students (You have to start as a freshman at RMC on the cadet wing) or by those who are taking degrees in programs not offered by RMC. im sure there are a few exceptions where RMC does not have the room, but the CF needs the projected intake numbers.



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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2005, 00:00:03 »
I don't know about 4 and 4 back-to-back, if that's your meaning.  I do know that you can do 4 years at a civvie U, apply for an Officer trade, then have the military pay for a trade-specific Post Grad degree down the line.  A yearly message comes out that lists all of the PGs and the trades that are eligible to apply for them.
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Offline Meridian

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2005, 13:46:01 »
DD:

Is it usually only open to specialist trades? Basically my question is, do the pointy end folks get opportunities to get post-grads at all? Perhaps in War History, or Strategic Studies?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2005, 13:50:24 »
...Basically my question is, do the pointy end folks get opportunities to get post-grads at all? Perhaps in War History, or Strategic Studies?

Yes... They do...you'll have to visit the BPSO (and go through your C of C) to do this.  Many current officers have done so already.
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Offline Meridian

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2005, 13:56:00 »
Treehugger:

Careful on your statements.

AT least at Concordia here in Montreal, there is NOT a flat fee for full time tuition, like there is in Ontario (at least Ottawa schools). You pay per credit here, whether its 3 or under or 4 or 5. There is no "discount" or free 5th class like there is in Ontario.

You are correct that at least for most Financial Aid offices, "Full time" is a minimum of 4 courses per semester. Anything less is part time.  Anything more than 5 is an overload and usually requires justification. (Depends on school).

When you say "courses other than those required", I am assuming you mean "Credits extra to the degree", rather than "free electives" correct?
TO be honest, under any program, I cant see how you didnt have enough free electives to be able to take a psych course. Every program ive seen out there in all disciplines ALWAYS has some sort of electives/general ed opportunities, at least in the public universities.   RMC itself forces this requirement through taking arts (when you are in science) or science (when youare in arts) courses.  It gives you a more well balanced degree.

If you are asking why the military will only pay for the 120 credits for your degree (or 90, 0r whatever the number is), it is because the military requires degreed officers, not degreed officers plus a bunch of credits.  IF anything, it shows poor planning on your own part to find courses that would fit your program and your interests... if you are at Civvy U, you already have the benefit of having chosen a school, program and specialization, and any minors.  RMC does not have the same variety at all.

Furthermore, the military will even pay for honours degrees, which in the case of most schools in Ontario means 4 years versus a 3 year undergrad (I know engineering and some other programs are different).

Id have to say they are being pretty giving here. If you wanna go take yoga lessons or something, are you asking the military to pay for that too?

Offline Adam_18

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2005, 19:12:27 »

  i am planning on attending university and becoming an officer in the army, what i was wondering was in the ROTP civilian university do they have any say on which university you go to and what you take or could i apply for say university of ontario criminology and still be within the ROTP i wasnt sure if their were any limitiations on that kind of thing. also with the ROTP while in civi university how often do you train are you like a reservist?
i plan to talk to my guidence counsoler and a recruiter so if anyone tells me to go talk to a recruiter i am, but i was just curious and wanted a little information before i went

thanks

Offline kincanucks

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2005, 19:21:28 »
You can go to any recognized Canadian university as long as you are studying a degree programme that is compatible to the officer occupation for which you are applying for and that information can be obtained from your local CFRC/D.  Basically you attend university for 8 months and then you train for the rest.  Therefore, go talk to a recruiter.
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Offline Adam_18

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2005, 00:03:47 »

 i plan to, so that means i could go and get a degree in criminology and be an officer in the infantry or armoured corps?

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2005, 00:35:57 »
i plan to, so that means i could go and get a degree in criminology and be an officer in the infantry or armoured corps?

Yes you can.
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Offline jwsteele

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2005, 20:09:34 »
Seeing your MOC and degree plus the fact that you're UTPNCM RMC is most likely what you would be offered.  I don't know entirely how they select between civi u and RMC but from my experience at IAP training, most of the OCdt's that were in that MOC and all of the UTPNCM's were going to RMC.  I am ROTP civi u and they let me stay because I already had one year in and didn't want to interfere with my education.  Civi u is good but I guarantee you might get a little bit bored.  Unless you have an incredibly demanding schedule with tough courses, be prepared to have alot of free time on your hands...like alot of free time.  I kind of wish I was at RMC because I know I wouldn't be bored all the time and they offer lots of cool stuff to do.  That's all I can really tell you.  If you really want civi u, push for it.  I haven't been in long but I've realized that being pushy is sometimes the only way to get things happening.

Offline Strike

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2005, 20:38:24 »
Another plus on the RMC side vs civie u (based on reports from friends in the same degree progam that went to Queens) is the class size.  Your biggest classes will be in first year and then will gradually peter down.  I was chem Eng and my degree related classes varied from 9-18 people.  I think the Mech Eng guys were the biggest with about 60-70.  Civil Eng was also a very small class.

It means that the profs actually know who you are and you get a better chance for one-on-one should you need it.  It also means better access to the people working on their masters/PhDs who will sometimes be helping out with your projects.
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Offline Scants

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2005, 20:23:00 »
The easiest thing to do is check the "No" box on your application that asks if you are willing to attend RMC.  If your PSO gets a knot in her face because you don't want to go to RMC, so what. I would assume that RMC is "her" school and she would believe RMC to be the road to success. Hmmm... Gen Hillier, CDS (Memorial U); LGen Caron, CLS (U of Ottawa); VAdm Buck, VCDS (McGill); LGen Dumais, DCDS (McGill); VAdm MacLean, CMS (Dalhousie), etc, etc.  The best school in the world will be the one attended by the person you are talking to.  Pop quiz: what is the best trade in the CF? I know you said your trade and not mine (even though mine is the best).
About getting on her bad side; the 1st thing the BPSO explained to me in my interview is that his input only counted for a small part of the whole process and he could say "no" but the board could still accept me. He was quite aware of the fact that most people think the process stops or continues on his call but was quick to point out that was false.  Who would a board more closely listen to: a CO who has known you (directly or through his subordinates), or a person who talked to you for a couple of hours? I was surprised that he told me this straight off because the PSO that worked for him gave the impression that the sun set or rose on direct order from their office.
They have no problems leaving you in a civvie u: they don't have to pay for your posting, you are not eating the CF's food, you aren't wearing out their uniforms, etc.
Civi u is good but I guarantee you might get a little bit bored.   Unless you have an incredibly demanding schedule with tough courses, be prepared to have alot of free time on your hands...like alot of free time.  
If you are bored: study or go to the gym.
  I haven't been in long but I've realized that being pushy is sometimes the only way to get things happening.
A hint that could help during your career: "pushy" gets you hated and screwed around. The idea is to recognize a problem, bring it to the attention of those that can fix it, and most importantly provide a solution.
It means that the profs actually know who you are and you get a better chance for one-on-one should you need it.  
I have found the easiest way to get help from the prof is to go and ask for it. I have yet to be turned down for assistance by a prof. I have found that they enjoy when a student talks to them one-on-one. Too many of the students I have met are intimidated or nervous to talk to profs and they only hurt themselves. Once I had mentioned to a prof that I would be missing a few days because one of my boys was sick and he insisted I drop by and he would photocopy his notes for me.  When talking to profs (or higher ups for that matter) talk to them like you would anyone else, after all they are just people.
Good luck,
Scants
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chaos75

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2005, 23:40:47 »
As a follow on to what Scants said, he is right.  Your CO has the biggest part to play in your ranking with the selection board.  When applying for the program ask only for what you want, and do not put down choices, including schools, that you dont really want.  If you dont get what you want, wait till next year and improve your application.  However, if you are accepted and turn it down becasue it was not the right school, or was the third choice you really didnt want but put down anyways, dont be surprised if you do not get another offer.  If you make your reasons clear on your application, as to personal reasons/family issues why you want to attend Civ U, there is a good chance youll get it.  There is a alot more UT civ u than there is RMC UT's.  Anyways two cents from an ex RMC UT.

Offline Tracker 23A

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2005, 23:57:04 »
The easiest thing to do is check the "No" box on your application that asks if you are willing to attend RMC.   If your PSO gets a knot in her face because you don't want to go to RMC, so what. I would assume that RMC is "her" school and she would believe RMC to be the road to success. Hmmm... Gen Hillier, CDS (Memorial U); LGen Caron, CLS (U of Ottawa); VAdm Buck, VCDS (McGill); LGen Dumais, DCDS (McGill); VAdm MacLean, CMS (Dalhousie), etc, etc.   The best school in the world will be the one attended by the person you are talking to.   Pop quiz: what is the best trade in the CF? I know you said your trade and not mine (even though mine is the best).
About getting on her bad side; the 1st thing the BPSO explained to me in my interview is that his input only counted for a small part of the whole process and he could say "no" but the board could still accept me. He was quite aware of the fact that most people think the process stops or continues on his call but was quick to point out that was false.   Who would a board more closely listen to: a CO who has known you (directly or through his subordinates), or a person who talked to you for a couple of hours? I was surprised that he told me this straight off because the PSO that worked for him gave the impression that the sun set or rose on direct order from their office.
They have no problems leaving you in a civvie u: they don't have to pay for your posting, you are not eating the CF's food, you aren't wearing out their uniforms, etc. If you are bored: study or go to the gym. A hint that could help during your career: "pushy" gets you hated and screwed around. The idea is to recognize a problem, bring it to the attention of those that can fix it, and most importantly provide a solution.I have found the easiest way to get help from the prof is to go and ask for it. I have yet to be turned down for assistance by a prof. I have found that they enjoy when a student talks to them one-on-one. Too many of the students I have met are intimidated or nervous to talk to profs and they only hurt themselves. Once I had mentioned to a prof that I would be missing a few days because one of my boys was sick and he insisted I drop by and he would photocopy his notes for me.   When talking to profs (or higher ups for that matter) talk to them like you would anyone else, after all they are just people.
Good luck,
Scants


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