Author Topic: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]  (Read 1055431 times)

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Offline stoker dave

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2475 on: September 25, 2018, 10:46:19 »
Recruiting needs to rethink their strategy if they really want to be hiring the best.

Well, Vitech, I am going to assume you are young and naive.  So we should all cut you some slack.  But your arrogance is bit off-putting.

Here's a thought; it relates to the Navy because that is my background but I am sure there are parallels elsewhere. 

It's 4:00 am.  You are the engineering officer of a ship.  You haven't slept well in four days.  The ship is 1,000 miles from land and has been at sea for the past 23 days.  All kinds of old, crapped-out equipment and machinery is failing.  The captain is mad at the restrictions due to unavailability of some key systems.  The executive officer calls for an update every 20 mins on ongoing repairs.  The chief of the engineering department is mad because everyone is working crazy hours and getting no sleep.  The supply department can't get you spares you need.  You have a ton of paperwork that has been neglected.  And your wife is sick and your kids are doing poorly in school and there is nothing you can do about that while at sea. 

Now, who is the 'best' qualified person for this job?  The guy that went to the 'best' school?  Or the guy that can keep it together and do what needs doing? 

Offline Vitech

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2476 on: September 26, 2018, 06:36:02 »
What exactly is your point, that parents are less qualified because they potentially have more things to worry about? That is a hell of a generalization to make about how someone performs under pressure. My point is that, parent or not, the top graduates will have the most opportunity and in IT Canadian forces aren’t competitive with industry pay. That means that caf will get the bottom of the graduating class, if they are lucky. If caf wants any shot at getting the best people they need to bend over backwards to sign them up before they get an offer from the civilian world. Do you want the best hackers working for caf or should they be vigilantes and free lancers?

An A student / parent might perform at a B or C level when under the stress you described, but a C student might perform at a D or F grade level under the same stress minus parental concerns. It’s hard to generalize about people but there is no reason to think someone with kids isn’t going to outperform someone without. As a parent I likely possess experience, wisdom, and skills that a single person probably wouldn’t understand. Multitasking under pressure is part of being a parent.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 06:44:12 by Vitech »

Offline kratz

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2477 on: September 26, 2018, 07:48:46 »
Nobody mentioned parents being anything. You took offense.

Many CAF positions are not competitive with their respective industry. This has been a fact for decades, it's not a new phenomenon.
The assertion the majority of DEO applications are bottom of the class is based on assumptions, not back by any facts.
There are other benefits, aside from pay, many CAF members find more attractive than six figures.

Successful HR required at least a 8:1 ratio. Current CAF recruiting more than meets this standard. This allows to be quit selective on who is  accepted into highly competitive trades. Anyone can apply to the CAF, but nobody is guaranteed a job with the military.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2478 on: October 01, 2018, 12:20:51 »
What exactly is your point, that parents are less qualified because they potentially have more things to worry about? That is a hell of a generalization to make about how someone performs under pressure. My point is that, parent or not, the top graduates will have the most opportunity and in IT Canadian forces aren’t competitive with industry pay. That means that caf will get the bottom of the graduating class, if they are lucky. If caf wants any shot at getting the best people they need to bend over backwards to sign them up before they get an offer from the civilian world. Do you want the best hackers working for caf or should they be vigilantes and free lancers?

An A student / parent might perform at a B or C level when under the stress you described, but a C student might perform at a D or F grade level under the same stress minus parental concerns. It’s hard to generalize about people but there is no reason to think someone with kids isn’t going to outperform someone without. As a parent I likely possess experience, wisdom, and skills that a single person probably wouldn’t understand. Multitasking under pressure is part of being a parent.

Wow!  Did you ever read a lot into Stoker Dave's comment.

Whether someone is a parent or not was NOT his point.  There are many parents in the CAF, across all ranks and occupations.  We deal with it.  The point, however, here is that there are pressures placed on CAF members due to the unique nature of what we do, including parental pressures that are exacerbated by separation.  Pressures that do not necessarily have any parallel in the civilian world. Pressures that being the "top" student at the "best" school won't help you with.  Being the brightest and the best is not necessarily what we're looking for and for that matter, the "top" student is not always the best or the brightest.  We don't need somebody to design the most efficient gas turbine engine in the history of mankind.  We need somebody who can get the one we have operating during a hurricane when we're dead in the water, with no outside support and no spare parts.

Basic training is not perfect, but it at least gives us an indication of how someone performs under pressure with minimal sleep and an irregular schedule.  If you have difficulty performing in a controlled environment with little danger, you're probably not going to do well when the stakes are higher.  This is why we want to do it the beginning in an effort to weed out the unsuitable before we invest in the really expensive training.  As I said before, it's not an especially difficult course, if you have the aptitude for it, but it is not especially easy either.  You have to do more than just show up.  I've seen some of the "best and brightest" from the "best" schools do miserably and even fail BMOQ.  Academic achievement is not necessarily a good indicator of success in military operations.

Being the "best and brightest" in the military is a combination of things beyond marks in the classroom.

Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Schwartzie55

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2479 on: October 01, 2018, 13:31:39 »
Couldn’t have been said any better.

Offline Buck_HRA

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2480 on: October 15, 2018, 09:04:02 »
I am in a civ uni degree program with 2.5 years remaining. I’ve read that you are expected to go to BMOQ during the summer, my question is whether or not this is required. Firstly, the university has classes during the summer as well, meaning I could finish my degree quicker. The second reason that I would want to postpone BMOQ is because I am a single parent, and it would make more sense not to change my children’s living arrangements until after university (they would be moving to stay with my mother). Does anyone know if there is any flexibility in this regard? I would also like to know if it is possible to be accepted into rotp for the upcoming January 2019 semester.

The Recruiting Centre is always your best source of information.  I'm not a recruiter and my experience in this regard is decades old.  However, as a general rule, we like to get personnel through basic training as soon as we can.  Why would we invest in your education, only to have you fail BMOQ in the end?  The sooner we determine if you will make a suitable officer, the better off everyone (including you) will be.  Not to be too cynical, do you really expect the CAF to pay for the remainder of your education before you have proven yourself?  Although BMOQ is not an especially difficult course, one needs to do more than simply attend.  Thousands have passed.  Hundreds have failed.

In terms of funding your subsidized education, we work in fiscal years (1 Apr - 31 Mar).  Therefore, the likelihood of funding you for a semester is low.  If there is sufficient funding available for FY 18/19, there is a possibility you could be reimbursed for classes starting in Sep 18; however, that only happens if we didn't recruit enough last year and I'm not sure that ever happens for ROTP candidates (it's more likely with medical and dental applicants).  The most likely scenario is that you would be picked up for subsidization starting in Sep 19.

Sorry for the late jump in here, but to expand a little bit.
It's a requirement to do BMOQ your first "summer" in the CAF; be that prior to starting school or between the 1st and 2nd years that the CAF pays for.  If you do not attend BMOQ within that timing a Progress Review Board will be convened to determine if you can stay in ROTP.

As for the start of January 2019 - to do that you will need to enroll in the FY18/19 intake.  FY18/19 for ROTP is complete and closed - the CAF has started work on opening the FY19/20 campaign to enroll individuals for the September 2019 school year (doing BMOQ over Summer 2019).