Author Topic: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots  (Read 4349 times)

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Offline Small.Arms

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Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« on: May 01, 2019, 00:03:00 »
https://globalnews.ca/news/5223262/canadian-soldiers-unmuzzled-weapons-khalsa-day/amp/

Opinions; was this an embarrassment or a show of a “well-equipped CAF,” I’ve taken to twitter and read comments with very mixed responses; my own curiosity is what has taken me to ask.

Also my first post please inform me of any wrongdoing.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 16:53:38 by PuckChaser »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2019, 00:10:04 »
They should be wearing their helmets.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:09:43 by PuckChaser »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2019, 00:14:55 »
They should be wearing their helmets.

And not in this parade at all. Ever.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:09:32 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2019, 00:23:37 »
The comments on Twitter are amazing, armchair SMs everywhere. Former Prime Minister COS commenting on soldier discipline and how they look "sloppy," people complaining about how they aren't marching in step in fighting order. I love the chaos created when we do things half-pregnant, in this case the mixing of tactical dress / equipment with parades / ceremonies. I am just loving this.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:09:22 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2019, 00:51:46 »
Sin in haste... repent at leisure.

Clearly not a great decision by someone, somewhere, and they won't be allowed to forget about it for awhile I'm sure.  ::)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:09:09 by PuckChaser »
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2019, 00:59:16 »
Any one else notice a lot of bad decisions leavong egg on faces of the past year or so? Several reserve COs removed in ontario over the past couple years, and I know of other gaffs in this sort of league. Seems COs and below might not be getting the required advice to make proper decision in line with policy, not to mention the drill amd ceremonial manual.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:08:55 by PuckChaser »
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2019, 01:04:20 »
Our unit did community parades in this fashion quite often.  I'm surprised to see the backlash, as the community was generally extremely supportive & we heard cheers as we progressed along the parade route.

Back home there was typically about 3 parades a year in which our unit would provide 1 or 2 vehicles, and about 10 troops to walk the parade route.  Unloaded C7's and C9's, in full fighting order minus the helmets.  We did this for several years before I got out, and I don't think it would have changed shortly after.


While I completely disagree with the whole ethnic "Sikh soldiers marching on Sikh Day" or whatever (Sorry, not very PC anymore) -- I thought this kind of thing was fairly normal in smaller cities & generally garnered a positive reaction from the crowd.  (Throwing out candies & swag to kids on Family Day was always a great boost in the community.)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:08:44 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2019, 09:23:44 »
The big problem, and I assert that it is a HUGE problem, is twofold:

First, these Khalsa Day parades, which many in official India, believe promote Sikh separatism, extremism and even terrorism, lie at the root of Canada's current problems with India. It was Justin Trudeau's active participation in the 2017 parade in Toronto which led to part of the imbroglio in India in Feb 2018 ... the other part was his playing 'Mister Dressup.' The analogue, and I am NOT going overboard, is Charles DeGaulle's speech in Quebec in 1967 ~ Canada was, rightfully and officially furious and DeGaulle was, literally, expelled from Canada. That's how India sees Trudeau and the Sikhs ~ he is perceived to be supporting Sikh separatism for his own, domestic, partisan political ends. One doesn't need to believe that is the actual case in order to understand India's reactions ... it, annoying India, a rising great power, is an incredibly stupid policy on Canada's part; and

Second, there is a right way and wrong way to participate in community events and the CF 'leadership,' all the way up to and likely beyond BGen Paul, the Div Comd, did this 100% wrong. FDd no one pay a split second's worth of attention when the Foreign Affairs bureaucrats came to the Staff College to explain how foreign policy is conducted, at home and abroad? Or did some uniformed numbskull decide that an understanding of key strategic issues no longer matters to mere colonels?

There is a third issue: who in the name of all that's holy thinks that it's ever a good idea to use troops, in a quasi combat formation, in this community parade? It looks like the government and DND are saying 'we offer armed support' to the Khalistan movement.' That's just dumb, Dumb, DUMB.

The soldiers are not to blame, but a whole host of officers from about major to above brigadier general are, and they all ought need to be publicly dismissed, for cause ... the cause being that they are all irredeemably stupid.

My  :2c: and it has nothing at all to do with Canadian Sikhs, it is all about policy. The CF screwed the pooch on this one.
+2,100 « Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:08:35 by PuckChaser »
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Offline CaptainCookieMonster

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2019, 09:46:37 »
Excuse my phrasing, but shoot it, shovel it and shut up. It happened, apologize and move on. Some Jr officer, or one new to his role, goofed. I will never get why these guys were carrying their rifles like they were out on a hunting trip, though.


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« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:10:08 by PuckChaser »

Offline Lumber

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2019, 10:07:49 »
Excuse my phrasing, but shoot it, shovel it and shut up. It happened, apologize and move on. Some Jr officer, or one new to his role, goofed. I will never get why these guys were carrying their rifles like they were out on a hunting trip, though.


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Did you not read the article? Permission to do this came from much higher than a Jr. Officer.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:10:16 by PuckChaser »
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Offline CaptainCookieMonster

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2019, 10:08:51 »
I read the article on CBC. Thank you for your clarification.


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« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:10:23 by PuckChaser »

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2019, 10:50:05 »
I don't think that the problem is that they were in the parade or even that they were armed.  However, it was a PARADE; therefore, they should have been in a parade order of dress, with their weapons at the shoulder arms and marching in a parade formation.  I don't understand this argument of gaggling* about in fighting order in order to show that we are a well-equipped fighting force.  I don't understand why many people today seem to think this is more appropriate than dress uniforms with medals and qualification badges.  Soldiers are rightfully proud of their achievements and should be allowed to publicly display them from time to time.  This is better done with a dress uniform which tells the soldier's story.  Combat clothing only shows that they've been issued combat clothing.

Should an Air Force unit parade in work dress with folks carrying tool boxes?  How about a bunch of sailors in NCDs dragging hawsers?

*Yes, "gaggling."  It looks undisciplined and you can't even argue that they were in a "patrol" formation.  A patrol formation is still a disciplined formation and all of these soldiers are too close together to be an effective patrol - one grenade and they're done.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:10:37 by PuckChaser »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2019, 11:13:55 »
Reserves have a unique definition of full fighting order.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:00 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2019, 11:18:06 »
Are the Lorne's an entirely Sikh unit these days?  Or was this parade only for Sikhs?

And I'm with Pusser on this one.  Gaggling.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:10:52 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2019, 11:20:01 »
Reserves have a unique definition of full fighting order.

Yup.... no gloves, BEW's, Gas mask, or flak/body armour ... ;D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:10:44 by PuckChaser »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2019, 11:21:31 »
I agree with Pusser. I’ll post some thoughts and here they are. Its not so much the poor parade preps/orders and the "gaggling" as Pusser put it. That in itself is enough to make most anyone's head spin.
It is the appearance that the CAF has picked a side. And that ain't good folks. The CAF is supposed to be apolitical. This may amount to nothing but one never knows.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:08 by PuckChaser »
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2019, 11:40:02 »
Yup.... no gloves, BEW's, Gas mask, or flak/body armour ... ;D

Flak vests arent issued to PRes :p, where are their helmets? Or bush caps?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:15 by PuckChaser »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2019, 11:40:59 »
The big problem, and I assert that it is a HUGE problem, is twofold:

First, these Khalsa Day parades, which many in official India, believe promote Sikh separatism, extremism and even terrorism, lie at the root of Canada's current problems with India. It was Justin Trudeau's active participation in the 2017 parade in Toronto which led to part of the imbroglio in India in Feb 2018 ... the other part was his playing 'Mister Dressup.' The analogue, and I am NOT going overboard, is Charles DeGaulle's speech in Quebec in 1967 ~ Canada was, rightfully and officially furious and DeGaulle was, literally, expelled from Canada. That's how India sees Trudeau and the Sikhs ~ he is perceived to be supporting Sikh separatism for his own, domestic, partisan political ends. One doesn't need to believe that is the actual case in order to understand India's reactions ... it, annoying India, a rising great power, is an incredibly stupid policy on Canada's part; and

Second, there is a right way and wrong way to participate in community events and the CF 'leadership,' all the way up to and likely beyond BGen Paul, the Div Comd, did this 100% wrong. FDd no one pay a split second's worth of attention when the Foreign Affairs bureaucrats came to the Staff College to explain how foreign policy is conducted, at home and abroad? Or did some uniformed numbskull decide that an understanding of key strategic issues no longer matters to mere colonels?

There is a third issue: who in the name of all that's holy thinks that it's ever a good idea to use troops, in a quasi combat formation, in this community parade? It looks like the government and DND are saying 'we offer armed support' to the Khalistan movement.' That's just dumb, Dumb, DUMB.

The soldiers are not to blame, but a whole host of officers from about major to above brigadier general are, and they all ought need to be publicly dismissed, for cause ... the cause being that they are all irredeemably stupid.

My  :2c: and it has nothing at all to do with Canadian Sikhs, it is all about policy. The CF screwed the pooch on this one.

Thank you sir. Again you have summed up what most of us probably are thinking. Bravo Zulu.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:22 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2019, 12:02:22 »
Are the Lorne's an entirely Sikh unit these days?  Or was this parade only for Sikhs?

And I'm with Pusser on this one.  Gaggling.

looks like a composite group of Sikhs from several units.  Different cap badges and turban colours. 


Regardless, the optics and execution looks bad.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:29 by PuckChaser »
Optio

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2019, 12:10:12 »
Did a bit of wiki searching (whatever) and found this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalsa#Contemporary_status

Each year the Khalsa display their military skills around the world at a festival called Hola Mohalla. During Hola Mohalla military exercises are performed alongside mock battles followed by kirtan and valour poetry competitions. The Khalsa also lead the Sikhs in the annual Vaisakhi parade

So maybe they were invited to participate and the local commander was briefed on the religious aspect and that weapons were appropriate and he went off that without properly researching or seeking higher guidance? 

Who knows but someone is in trouble.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:37 by PuckChaser »
Optio

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2019, 12:41:16 »
Who knows but someone is in trouble.

One would hope, but these days who knows.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:49 by PuckChaser »
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2019, 16:18:00 »
Looking at this from a different perspective, and what I'm hoping is probably the case...

Perhaps this was a mere oversight.  Let's not be too busy to go on a witch-hunt & burn one of our own because the initial optics look bad. 

This could have been a simple matter of something showing up on someone's desk for "participating in event X" and someone saying "Yeah, sure."  Without knowing the historic and/or religious implications.


I highly doubt someone in the CF is so intensely interested in the India-Sikh nonsense that they DELIBERATELY chose to authorize this & "choose sides".  While that may be the end result in terms of optics, I doubt this was the intention.

Perhaps we can just call this a bad judgement call, a learning opportunity, and move on.  Unless something is done maliciously or with deliberately bad intentions, let's not pull out the pitch-forks just yet.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:11:56 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2019, 16:35:16 »
Looking at this from a different perspective, and what I'm hoping is probably the case...

Perhaps this was a mere oversight.  Let's not be too busy to go on a witch-hunt & burn one of our own because the initial optics look bad. 

This could have been a simple matter of something showing up on someone's desk for "participating in event X" and someone saying "Yeah, sure."  Without knowing the historic and/or religious implications.

I highly doubt someone in the CF is so intensely interested in the India-Sikh nonsense that they DELIBERATELY chose to authorize this & "choose sides".  While that may be the end result in terms of optics, I doubt this was the intention.

Perhaps we can just call this a bad judgement call, a learning opportunity, and move on.  Unless something is done maliciously or with deliberately bad intentions, let's not pull out the pitch-forks just yet.

By the time you get to be a LCol in the reserve Army and, worse yet, a BGen in the regular Arny (Comd 4 Cdn Div) you are supposed to be fully aware of (not just interested in) the nature of the "India-Sikh nonsense" and its implications for Canadian foreign policy ... anyone who is not aware of that should not be even a lieutenant in the Canadian Army, much less a lieutenant colonel.

Of course it's "a bad judgement call," bad enough that the CO should be relieved, tomorrow, and BGen Paul (who cannot be fired for political/PR/ethnocultural reasons ~ he's indigenous, likely the most senior serving indigenous member) should be packing his bags for a long, Long, LONG tour in Brussels or Mons, à la then Col, later BGen Serge Labbé after the Somalia affair.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:12:03 by PuckChaser »
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Offline Bzzliteyr

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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2019, 16:49:37 »
@Jarhamar, @MilEmE09 I can't believe I have to cut and paste this here in regards to helmets.

From the Dress Instructions:
c.A turban shall be worn by members with ceremonial, mess, service dress. Turbans shall also be worn with occupational and operational dress, subject to the safety and operational considerations noted in sub-paragraph a., above. When engaged in combat operations, operational training or when serving with peacekeeping or multinational contingents, adherents of the Sikh religion shall, when deemed essential, cover their head with a patka or other customary clothing item (see paragraph 21.), over which they shall wear the headdress (including combat helmets) and other items of military equipment as ordered by the commanding officer.

They didn't need to be wearing helmets and my assumption is that the showing of turbans was sort of a priority here.

@Chris Pook, if you look at the images, there were other non turban wearing soldiers in the parade.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 17:13:06 by PuckChaser »
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Re: Thoughts on decision by The Lorne Scots
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2019, 17:14:19 »
I promise I didn't edit the content of anyone's post, just changed the title to accurately reflect the unit's name. Some dude named Lorne Scott might be a nice guy, but he's not who the unit is named after.