Author Topic: Victimization of Veterans  (Read 8773 times)

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Victimization of Veterans
« on: March 26, 2018, 08:33:44 »
Quote
Former soldier killed partner, then himself in Springhill fire deaths, RCMP say

Family and friends say Marc Poulin, 42, suffered from PTSD and a brain injury following 3 tours in Afghanistan

A former soldier who killed his girlfriend and then himself at their Nova Scotia home had been on multiple tours in Afghanistan and came back psychologically "broken" and struggling with post-traumatic stress disorder, his family and friends said Friday.

The revelations came on the same day RCMP confirmed the deaths of 42-year-old Marc Poulin and 45-year-old Jennifer Lynne Semenec at a residence in Springhill were the result of a homicide followed by the man's suicide.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/springhill-house-fire-death-suspicious-fire-1.4590486


Only in Canada would a piece of garbage who murders his partner be labelled a victim.  This article disgusts me, I mentions his partner only in name and then goes in to a monologue on how "hard done by this murderer was" because of his PTSD.

Sorry, just getting sick of this. 

Offline BobSlob

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2018, 08:59:24 »
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/springhill-house-fire-death-suspicious-fire-1.4590486


Only in Canada would a piece of garbage who murders his partner be labelled a victim.  This article disgusts me, I mentions his partner only in name and then goes in to a monologue on how "hard done by this murderer was" because of his PTSD.

Sorry, just getting sick of this.

We in the military, especially the combat arms, have a huge mental health issue that's not being addressed. Sure there's programs out there, but the stigma of getting help is still very real. This guy didn't get the help he obviously needed and that's a shame, we've lost two lives that obviously didn't need to. Attitudes like yours only help to fuel that stigma.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2018, 09:59:49 »
There are guys who are falling between the cracks, it shouldn't be happening and I would hope those around them can help them towards help, it's out there.  Things have come a long way with mental health support in the system which is a good thing and great progress from 20 years ago.  But now, I worry too that anyone who has been suffering from PTSD will henceforth be looked upon as a lit fuse waiting to go off.  A different type of stigmatization that wouldn't be correct or fair either.

Offline Teager

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2018, 10:00:56 »
PTSD possibly mixed with a TBI untreated is not a good combination. If the brain has been damaged mixed with mental health you have to ask can that person be held accountable for what happened especially when that person tried to reach out for help but didn't get it?

It is never an easy thing to even understand how someone could take another life especially when that person cares about the other person. I think what the article tries to get at is could this have been avoided if the veteran had the proper help provided to him? I think advocates have been warning about this type of thing for years and have been saying the system needs to get serious about mental health and get a grip on it.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2018, 10:12:19 »
This guy didn't get the help he obviously needed and that's a shame, we've lost two lives that obviously didn't need to.

I think advocates have been warning about this type of thing for years and have been saying the system needs to get serious about mental health and get a grip on it.

For reference to the discussion,

The war doesn’t end when soldiers return home 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=124950.0
OP: "When I learned the news last week about the Canadian veteran suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder who unsuccessfully sought help and then, overcome by his operational injury, apparently killed his family and himself-"

Vet found dead w/wife, child and mother in N.S.
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=124917.0
OP: "A Canadian Forces veteran who was seeking treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder has been identified as one of four people found dead Tuesday evening in an apparent murder-suicide in a rural Nova Scotia home."

Not helping veterans could turn into national security problem: Military Ombudsm 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=124947.0
2 pages.




« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 10:16:59 by mariomike »

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2018, 10:48:09 »
We in the military, especially the combat arms, have a huge mental health issue that's not being addressed. Sure there's programs out there, but the stigma of getting help is still very real. This guy didn't get the help he obviously needed and that's a shame, we've lost two lives that obviously didn't need to. Attitudes like yours only help to fuel that stigma.

I am in the military and I am in the combat arms.  I'm also not happy because a murderer is being treated as a victim.  Call him what he is, a murdering scumbag.  Having a mental illness doesn't absolve someone from responsibility for a crime. I'll save the pity party for someone who is actually deserving.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2018, 11:15:33 »
You are in the military and the combat arms? Good for you, HB - go kill some of our enemies, but please leave psychiatry and law to the professionals in those fields.

You actually CAN and DO have cases where mental illness absolves someone from responsibility for a crime, and not just ex-military with PTSD but any Canadian with the required lack of mental ability at the time of the crime from all sorts of mental illnesses. So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.

Mental illnesses can and do make some people do some pretty abhorrent things - for which they may or may not be responsible. This potentially affects members of the military just as much as civilians at large and failing to provide proper support CAN have consequences. And people in charge in the CAF have been brushing off mental illnesses in the past - and some apparently still are if your attitude is an indication - which is not a good approach.

You call this person "scumbag" and "'piece of garbage", but you don't even know him or his circumstances. To quote a president: Sad!

 

Offline winnipegoo7

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2018, 11:35:29 »
So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.

The accused is dead, so there probably won't be a trial...

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2018, 11:51:36 »
You are in the military and the combat arms? Good for you, HB - go kill some of our enemies, but please leave psychiatry and law to the professionals in those fields.

You actually CAN and DO have cases where mental illness absolves someone from responsibility for a crime, and not just ex-military with PTSD but any Canadian with the required lack of mental ability at the time of the crime from all sorts of mental illnesses. So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.

Mental illnesses can and do make some people do some pretty abhorrent things - for which they may or may not be responsible. This potentially affects members of the military just as much as civilians at large and failing to provide proper support CAN have consequences. And people in charge in the CAF have been brushing off mental illnesses in the past - and some apparently still are if your attitude is an indication - which is not a good approach.

You call this person "scumbag" and "'piece of garbage", but you don't even know him or his circumstances. To quote a president: Sad!

Doesn't matter how you cut it, a murderer is a murderer.  We should not be victimizing people who commit heinous acts just because they happened to be Veterans.  It actually hurts every other Veteran out there.  I say this because you know what the General Public thinks:

"Just another FUBARed soldier!"






Offline mariomike

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2018, 11:53:04 »
Afghan vet's friend says anti-malarial drug may have sparked violence.

Just like Marilyn Manson and Video games were responsible for Columbine  :nod:

Offline BobSlob

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2018, 12:02:36 »
I am in the military and I am in the combat arms.  I'm also not happy because a murderer is being treated as a victim.  Call him what he is, a murdering scumbag.  Having a mental illness doesn't absolve someone from responsibility for a crime. I'll save the pity party for someone who is actually deserving.

He's being treated as someone who feel through the cracks and didn't get the treatment he required, not a victim. Your attitude absolutely disgusts me and you're actually part of the problem.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2018, 12:04:06 »
HB, what he did was wrong, without question, and I am not condoning it in any manner but I can understand to some degree.  Mental health isn't a black and white issue, there is plenty of grey. You get sucked down into the vortex and it's difficult to get back to the surface.  Some are able to come up for air like myself, I came home somewhat broken after the first and second visit to the sandbox.  It was not good times for the next couple of years.  Unfortunately some of us don't make it back to the surface and they take down those nearest to them when they go down for the final time.  There's no easy answers or quick solutions for that matter.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2018, 12:21:27 »
I know where HB is coming from. .....everyone of you reads about a gang related shooting and think "scumbags", even though the family is saying "they were good boys", but the second it's an ex -military, the excuses just fly out for them.
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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2018, 12:30:31 »
I don't believe that anyone here is excusing what happened, Bruce.  I'm not.  Your example though, being a gangbanger is a choice and lifestyle.  Mental health or lack thereof is neither a lifestyle or choice.  What I am saying is I can appreciate to some degree why it happened, that's the difference.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2018, 13:19:39 »
But you just gave him the "mental health" excuse by way of "family and friends" while not extending that courtesy to the family and friends  of a potential  mental health issue with a young man in downtown Toronto.  "Lifestyle and choice".....well this guy picked his, and took an innocent with him.   Just sayin. .......
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2018, 13:22:06 »
So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.

Not sure of the similarities and differences between Canadian and American criminal justice systems on the subject, but I read this,

"More veterans are using PTSD as defense in criminal cases"
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/14/nation/la-na-ptsd-20110915

PTSD as a Criminal Defense
http://jaapl.org/content/40/4/509

Having PTSD from military service can help you get a plea agreement or can be be used as a defense at trial.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/help-veterans-with-ptsd-who-are-accused-crimes.html

From Canada,

'Broken' soldier with PTSD not criminally responsible for killing wife, defence argues
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/1118-richmond
























































Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2018, 13:26:30 »
Doesn't matter how you cut it, a murderer is a murderer.  We should not be victimizing people who commit heinous acts just because they happened to be Veterans.  It actually hurts every other Veteran out there.  I say this because you know what the General Public thinks:

"Just another FUBARed soldier!"

There you go again: You are starting from the point of view that it is a heinous - planned - executed in cold blood murder.

I take it you served in the sandbox, and as a combat soldier, so you likely killed some enemies. Are you a murderer? No, that is not what a murder is. Did Gerald Stanley kill Colten Bushie? Yes, he even admitted so. Was it murder? No, a court who heard ALL the evidence decided it was not.

So you are jumping to conclusion without knowing all the facts. And what is your basis to do so? Apparently it is because you believe that we both know that the General Public thinks "just another FUBARed soldier!"  Well, this event took place around New Year's day (BTW, this is of some significance to people in the medical field - perhaps Mariomike can confirm from personal experience - but the Holiday Season seem to actually see a peek in suicides and grave depressions in Northern latitudes countries) and so far you are the only person and place where I have seen anyone take that attitude of "scumbag/piece of crap/FUBARed soldier.

And BTW, we (the military) are not special in that way. There are a lot more events unfortunately called "murder-suicides" in the public at large than in the military/retired military community. These event create sadness in the General Public, even anger or feelings of helplessness in the said public as they usually have to do with some form of mental breakdown or uncontrolled anger/depression by the suicidal person - but very, very seldom if ever are these people considered by the public as "scumbags or pieces of crap". That is not the case for  gang members shooting one another in large crowds downtown TO without any regards for bystanders: Those are appropriately called by those monikers.

What you have in this case, and many other similar ones, is not victimization, it is an attempt by the population to reconcile what happened with society's norms in a way they can understand, and to to both bereave and come to terms with how to avoid repeats. I, for one, firmly believes that our human nature makes it very difficult for those of us who never suffered from mental illness to understand mental illnesses and their effects. We can all understand how someone who lost an arm cannot grab something on that side of him, but it is near impossible to figure out how someone with all limbs in perfect condition can be paralyzed from using these limbs by depression, or how one can actually fail to find the courage to go on living.

All kindly submitted for your consideration.

 :cheers:

Offline mariomike

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2018, 13:44:52 »
From a Canadian legal source,

QUOTE

The Defence of "Not Criminally Responsible" Under s.16 of the Criminal Code (Formerly Referred to as the "Insanity" Defence)

A “mental disorder” is an umbrella classification of a number of mental health conditions and diseases that negatively impact a person’s mood, way of thinking, actions and ability to cope with everyday life. A few examples of these are schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, personality and anxiety and dissociative disorders, suicidal behavior, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder."
https://www.kruselaw.ca/blogpost/not-criminally-responsible

END QUOTE

Offline Petard

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2018, 14:00:36 »
A lot is being said about this former soldier, but not much about his murder victim, and there's no debating that she was a murder victim

She sounds like she was a person of immense compassion, she was certainly brave to of entered into such a relationship

Her sister's response to this tragedy is one of incredible grace in such terrible sadness. What a remarkable family Jennifer Lynne Semenec came from

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1555527-sister-of-springhill-fire-victim-blames-deaths-on-ptsd

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2018, 14:08:53 »
Apologies to you, HB. I was under the impression that this related to the events of January 4, 2018, also in Nova Scotia. They relate to another event of a day or two ago.

However, I still don't see any sign anywhere by the Public of laying this on "another FUBARed soldier", not even the family of the victim of the killing sees it that way, but rather with compassion, and it does not change my underlying argument.

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2018, 14:44:09 »
This attitude has been flying around here since people started getting diagnosed and I'm getting tired of it.

I have Mod status, Subscriber status and more.

I also have PTSD.

Now, if you've got it, and physically and mentally know your condition(s) and their effects on you, you're doing better than most out there.

I don't begrudge opinions, everyone is entitled to them. If your guessing, say so. If you want to state fact, back it up.

Keep them civil and keep them informative.

He's the caveat. If you DON"t have PTSD, or TBI, if your going to make inflammatory, unfounded statements on what you THINK is the cause someone, that's diagnosed, did something, maybe you should just shut the frig up.

That is the true picture of Victimization of Veterans. The ignorant opinion of posters, especially from other military members.

Every single case is different. We're not all deranged killers waiting for an opportunity, then there's the other extreme. The fire team partner you have or yourself may be affected without either of you knowing, but you trust each other with your lives.

I'm not trying to stifle conversation. On the contrary, I want INFORMED discussion, without the melodrama of Frankenstein's villagers.

If you want this thread to continue, sort yourselves out and watch what your saying.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 14:51:10 by recceguy »
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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2018, 18:48:48 »
I wonder how much pressure Ontario's ****ed up family law system brought him even further down the sewer of unending despair that it causes. I have met many people who are homeless, suicidal and desperate because they lost everything they had, or once were. Mostly men, more frequently veterans. 

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2018, 19:33:30 »
I'm not an expert but sometimes people aren't in their right minds. TBI etc will have an effect on a person's personality and how they cope with life in general.
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Victimization of Veterans
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2018, 20:29:51 »
From a Canadian legal source,

QUOTE

The Defence of "Not Criminally Responsible" Under s.16 of the Criminal Code (Formerly Referred to as the "Insanity" Defence)

A “mental disorder” is an umbrella classification of a number of mental health conditions and diseases that negatively impact a person’s mood, way of thinking, actions and ability to cope with everyday life. A few examples of these are schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, personality and anxiety and dissociative disorders, suicidal behavior, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder."
https://www.kruselaw.ca/blogpost/not-criminally-responsible

END QUOTE

MM

You left out a very critical part of the definition of what constitutes the "not criminally responsible" defence. From the prior para of the same source:

Quote
In very extreme cases an accused who suffers from mental illness may have a defence to the crime they are charged with as their mental health issue prevented them from understanding the nature and quality of their actions or prevented them from knowing their actions were wrong.

There are numerous mental health issues which could underlie or motivate a person's actions but in only very limited circumstances do those issues prevent the individual from understanding that the nature and quality of their actions were wrong. Where the person does understand that what he is doing is wrong, he has no insanity defence regardless of how severe his mental health issue may be.

In respect of this most recent incident, I have no idea as to whether or not the individual was or was not in the requisite state of mind. I doubt that we'll ever really know now. I'll withhold judgement one way or the other.

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