Author Topic: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia  (Read 89296 times)

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2016, 08:19:58 »
Interestingly enough, guess how you spell "Putin" in French;D

In English, it is a homonym of a gardening implement

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2016, 09:54:46 »

Only took 1.5 pages to mention medals (not that you care), but guaranteed that's the first thing someone thinks of at NDHQ.
Yup. As well as some 32 day CFTPO tasks

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« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 10:00:46 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2016, 10:26:36 »



Wonder how badly the infrastructure in places like Lahr has faired out the past few decades.  Might be soon putting a fresh coat of paint on some of it?

Lahr is now the Black Forest Airport, was converted back to a civilian airport after we left, probably in much better condition then when we left. Though with the British Army coming home from Germany, we might be able to score a deal on a well kept base.


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Offline Journeyman

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2016, 11:22:48 »
Yup. As well as some 32 day CFTPO tasks
   :nod:   Let the "Staff Annoyance Visits" begin.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2016, 11:35:37 »

Lahr is now the Black Forest Airport, was converted back to a civilian airport after we left, probably in much better condition then when we left. Though with the British Army coming home from Germany, we might be able to score a deal on a well kept base.


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Lahr Flugplatz is in someways modernized, and at the same time still has remnants of 4 CMBG facilities, either in use or derelict.  It is easily searchable.

Did we not set up a small AMU and supply facility with a tiny staff in Bonn to provide the CAF with an airhead and support on a limited scale back in the late 2000's? 
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Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2016, 12:00:02 »
Tell that to the Ukrainians, the Moldovans and the Georgians - or the Baltics, for that matter, where Russia appears to STILL be trying to sanction what they're considering former Soviet deserters.

Meanwhile, a bit of initial RUS media reaction ...

* - Web presence of RIA Novosti, Russia's state-operated news agency
** - RT, formerly Russia Today, is "a Russian government-funded television network that runs cable and satellite television channels directed to audiences outside of Russia"


If Russia had any real strength or ability to project power it wouldn't be fighting a proxy war in Ukraine or made a half hearted attempt at invading Georgia. The fact of the matter is that Russia cannot project power inside it's sphere of influence, let alone rival NATO. Any show of Russian force is smoke and mirrors similar to Saddam's military post Gulf War 1. NATO sending troops into Eastern Europe, to me, is more about trying to keep NATO relevant and united after an ineffective Afghan mission than actually trying to dissuade Russia from doing something.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2016, 13:34:26 »
If Russia had any real strength or ability to project power it wouldn't be fighting a proxy war in Ukraine or made a half hearted attempt at invading Georgia. The fact of the matter is that Russia cannot project power inside it's sphere of influence, let alone rival NATO. Any show of Russian force is smoke and mirrors similar to Saddam's military post Gulf War 1. NATO sending troops into Eastern Europe, to me, is more about trying to keep NATO relevant and united after an ineffective Afghan mission than actually trying to dissuade Russia from doing something.

If a clash happened and Russia deployed it's artillery, I think we would be shocked at the carnage on our side. It would not last long but the conflict would have a causality rate that rivals Iraq and Afghanistan combined. NATO will stumble in the first week, followed by a counter offensive that would stop the Russian offensive. It would be very short and very bloody with a lot of dead AFV's and aircraft on both sides. Expect heavy causalities within various field headquarters caused by their lack of EW, light discipline and failure to secure the perimeters.   

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2016, 13:45:42 »
NATO sending troops into Eastern Europe, to me, is more about trying to keep NATO relevant and united after an ineffective Afghan mission than actually trying to dissuade Russia from doing something.
In a world of nuance, I do have to agree that this is registering at a more-than-zero level for some decision makers.

If Russia had any real strength or ability to project power it wouldn't be fighting a proxy war in Ukraine or made a half hearted attempt at invading Georgia.
Assuming, of course, that Russia's goal is to take these territories once & for all, as opposed to, say, keeping the "other guys" off balance.
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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2016, 14:30:43 »
Two questions:
1.  For those that know more than me, what should an optimal battlegroup for Latvia look like? 
2.  Is there any chance that this deployment could be used to justify of some new kit that is currently missing in the Army's quiver:  ATGM's?  Self-propelled howitzers?  SAM system of some sort?
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Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2016, 14:36:27 »
If a clash happened and Russia deployed it's artillery, I think we would be shocked at the carnage on our side. It would not last long but the conflict would have a causality rate that rivals Iraq and Afghanistan combined. NATO will stumble in the first week, followed by a counter offensive that would stop the Russian offensive. It would be very short and very bloody with a lot of dead AFV's and aircraft on both sides. Expect heavy causalities within various field headquarters caused by their lack of EW, light discipline and failure to secure the perimeters.   

I agree that Russia is likely a tougher nut to crack than what we give it credit for, but the overarching point is that any victory they achieved would be phyrric in nature and short lasting (like the Iraqi attack on Khafji in Gulf War 1). Russia's bigger problems include a horrible economy, massive social issues (Aging population, mass alcoholism, etc), and internal terrorist threat. No to mention the issue they have on their Chinese border with a Chinese nation that would love nothing more than to rid itself of Russia on its doorstep and replace it with smaller and weaker satellite states. Even attacking a nation like Latvia, in 2016, would only result in further international isolation, international resolve to rid the world of Putin, and the creation of another internal problem in the HIGHLY unlikely scenario that the Russians fight to a draw and were allowed to keep Latvia.

The point, then, is that there is absolutely nothing for the Russians to gain by attacking a NATO nation (or actually attacking any nation) and absolutely everything to lose. NATO having a high readiness Brigade in Latvia will accomplish the square root of F all while costing us money that we could use elsewhere.

The decision smacks of knee jerk reactions to pretend problems with the goal of making Russia seem like a bad guy. it's basically watching the movie "Canadian Bacon" with Canada replaced with Russia.

 

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2016, 14:49:40 »
You know... I may not be the world's biggest optimist, but listening to some of this discussion is like Marvin talking to Eeyore about the the prospects for supper.

Jus' sayin'.

 [:D

I agree completely.  This is a strong response to a clear requirement in accordance with our obligations to NATO.....and to our key Allies.  It also does not rule out continued engagement in the fight against Da'esh in Iraq and Syria (or more importantly, the stabilisation effort upon their defeat), contributing to the effort in Columbia, or even in the Sahel. 

It is difficult to pick your spots with a small but competent and respected military, because the opportunity cost of any commitment is so high.  It is also difficult to meet all ones obligations (treaty and otherwise, including political) with a small military.  How about we hear what the plan is before we all jump up from our armchairs to call it down?  Or we could just continue with knee-jerk bashing of our own military, indulging our predilection for auto-flagellation.
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2016, 14:51:19 »
There was nothing to gain by supporting and helping the Donetsk separatists or even in Georgia. The Western public was more than willing to concede Crimea, particularly considering how well they orchestrated it. Don't apply pure logic or your way of thinking to your opposition political decisions, because chances are you be wrong.

Offline Sandyson

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2016, 19:48:40 »
My guess is that sending over the troops has more to do with the US election and the US defence budgetary cuts than a need by NATO.  A 'European threat' will be an American excuse to acquire military  equipment and therefore industrial profit in congressional districts.  It will allow  politicians--presidential and congressional to beat their chests.  It will be with a reliable enemy who can always use a foreign bad guy to maintain support at home but knows how to avoid serious casualties.  I suspect this will all fade considerably in late 2017 after politicians are in place and budgets have been awarded.  Like the Mark One who had to buy tanks, the Mark Two is being compelled to 'reinforce' NATO (or Canadian trade relations will be in serious trouble.) If Trudeau for one minute  thinks he is reinforcing NATO we have a serious national defence flaw. 

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2016, 20:15:14 »
My guess is that sending over the troops has more to do with the US election and the US defence budgetary cuts than a need by NATO.  A 'European threat' will be an American excuse to acquire military  equipment and therefore industrial profit in congressional districts.  It will allow  politicians--presidential and congressional to beat their chests.  It will be with a reliable enemy who can always use a foreign bad guy to maintain support at home but knows how to avoid serious casualties.  I suspect this will all fade considerably in late 2017 after politicians are in place and budgets have been awarded.  Like the Mark One who had to buy tanks, the Mark Two is being compelled to 'reinforce' NATO (or Canadian trade relations will be in serious trouble.) If Trudeau for one minute  thinks he is reinforcing NATO we have a serious national defence flaw.

It has zero to do with the US election.Its all about NATO and sending a signal to Russia.For Trudeau defense is his weakness,so sending a unit to serve in an NATO brigade has zero risk and he is seen to be strong on defense,which he is not.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2016, 20:24:57 »
It has zero to do with the US election.Its all about NATO and sending a signal to Russia.For Trudeau defense is his weakness,so sending a unit to serve in an NATO brigade has zero risk and he is seen to be strong on defense,which he is not.

And his buddy Obama asked him to do it. If anyone else asked, we'd thumb our noses at it.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2016, 20:46:27 »
Rotating a battalion every 6 months to Latvia is doable ?

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2016, 20:50:46 »
If anyone else asked, we'd thumb our noses at it.
Just like some might say it was the greatest thing since sliced bread if anyone else sent the same contingent to the same place?
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2016, 20:51:29 »
Rotating a battalion every 6 months to Latvia is doable ?

Afghanistan was "doable", but all those trucks we blew up didn't get replaced. At least the guys on high readiness have something to train for now.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2016, 20:58:09 »
It has zero to do with the US election.Its all about NATO and sending a signal to Russia.For Trudeau defense is his weakness,so sending a unit to serve in an NATO brigade has zero risk and he is seen to be strong on defense,which he is not.

Shades of Pierre Elliott Trudeau.  NATO forced his hand and pushed him to increase Canada's involvement in Europe.

Seems History is repeating itself, in a way.
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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2016, 21:00:01 »
... sending a unit to serve in an NATO brigade has zero risk ...
One hopes, anyway ...
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2016, 23:14:55 »
My guess is that sending over the troops has more to do with the US election and the US defence budgetary cuts than a need by NATO.  A 'European threat' will be an American excuse to acquire military  equipment and therefore industrial profit in congressional districts.  It will allow  politicians--presidential and congressional to beat their chests.  It will be with a reliable enemy who can always use a foreign bad guy to maintain support at home but knows how to avoid serious casualties.  I suspect this will all fade considerably in late 2017 after politicians are in place and budgets have been awarded.  Like the Mark One who had to buy tanks, the Mark Two is being compelled to 'reinforce' NATO (or Canadian trade relations will be in serious trouble.) If Trudeau for one minute  thinks he is reinforcing NATO we have a serious national defence flaw.
Ill agree with the part of the US defense budget, a US on claw backs should be a wake up to NATO that the free ride the past two decades is coming to a close and weight must be pulled

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2016, 19:17:47 »
On the whole medals issue- if there si gnashing of teeth over a medal for this (of course there is), any compelling reason not to simply begin a new window of eligible service for the SSM-NATO bar? It seems that that particular medal/bar was created for essentially the same thing.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2016, 19:23:04 »
Sounds about right, or authorize the wear of whatever medal NATO awards (they gave out the Art5 medal for Afghan I believe). No need to reinvent the wheel, although we're real good at it.

Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2016, 20:01:32 »
I agree completely.  This is a strong response to a clear requirement in accordance with our obligations to NATO.....and to our key Allies.  It also does not rule out continued engagement in the fight against Da'esh in Iraq and Syria (or more importantly, the stabilisation effort upon their defeat), contributing to the effort in Columbia, or even in the Sahel. 

It is difficult to pick your spots with a small but competent and respected military, because the opportunity cost of any commitment is so high.  It is also difficult to meet all ones obligations (treaty and otherwise, including political) with a small military.  How about we hear what the plan is before we all jump up from our armchairs to call it down?  Or we could just continue with knee-jerk bashing of our own military, indulging our predilection for auto-flagellation.

A strong response? It's quite literally the least we could do to support a mission. That said, I think that "auto-flagellation", discussion on the validity of policies/missions, and professional discussion is a critical element of our development as a force. I'd much prefer people discussion issues such as why we need to have a shield force against russia, or bomb Daesh, or go on any other mission than 60,000 yes men.

To each their own though.

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Re: CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2016, 20:22:21 »
On the whole medals issue- if there si gnashing of teeth over a medal for this (of course there is), any compelling reason not to simply begin a new window of eligible service for the SSM-NATO bar? It seems that that particular medal/bar was created for essentially the same thing.

Because people need to immediately know that you've been on OP XYZ, not "some NATO mission that can be seen as OP XYZ when you look real close".

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Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."