Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 647320 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Online RDBZ

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2426 on: January 09, 2019, 21:35:51 »
Pshaw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh66yZj3qlk

Yes, the Brit tourist in Aus; not a style you really want to copy....,, :o

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2427 on: January 09, 2019, 23:21:43 »
The only folk ever to be seen in Australia wearing hats with corks are foreign tourists. So yes, a hat like that will certainly let the locals know you’ve only just arrived in country...   ;D

Clearly the way to blend in is with a XXXX/VB/Coopers singlet, zinc nose, boardies and thongs. 

Thongs as in flip-flops, for the folks about to swan-dive into the gutter.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2428 on: January 10, 2019, 00:20:14 »
Meanwhile, in the real world, the arguments against the F-35 get thinner and thinner:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/31-air-force-pilots-reveal-why-they-love-f-35-stealth-fighter-40427

Of course I would actually advocate for the F-15X, not because I am some sort of dinosaur, but because the Eagle has one huge advantage over the "Panther"; long range. Canada needs to patrol the arctic and two long coastlines. We also have a history of force projection over continental distances, so having a fighter with long legs is very important. If the F-15X has or can be given the same sort of capabilities as the F-15E Strike Eagle, then we have a platform which can fulfill multiple roles for us (a Strike Eagle could carry weapons capable of striking ships at sea, such as a SDB that can glide over 100km to target, for example), plus in the new environment, a Strike Eagle can serve as the "arsenal aircraft" for Alliance F-35's slipping ahead to scout, identify and mark targets. Even if things go badly, the F-15 is still an actual fighter aircraft, so can fight its way in or out if necessary. Other mods to the Eagle platform include things like carrying 16 AAM's, so a few Eagles clearing a path for the rest of the force is also a possibility.

And future upgrades to the F-15X might even include the sort of sensor fusion technology which is the actual strong suit of the F-35.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2429 on: January 10, 2019, 10:06:12 »
Why are you going into the authors background???
Have you ever checked the profile of a site member here?  (… and not just the ones who consistently make  "WTF?!!  :stars:" posts )  ;)


There are all sorts of peripheral factors that can help consideration of a book or article.  Information about author's background can provide insight and/or context into their writing, which can aid critical  readers in more effectively judging the work. (critical, as in objective analysis and evaluation, not incessantly bitchin' )  The info may help understand the author's purpose in writing.  Does the author have a track-record of strong bias, such that 'unhelpful' facts are routinely ignored to strengthen their argument?  Despite apparently writing well in this instance, is the author competent in the subject (eg: see the clarifying comments on the government's fiscal system by Good2Golf  here )?  Is there anything interesting, unusual, or significant in when and how they grew up?  Is the particular school and/or professor's mentorship noteworthy in potentially affecting their writing?  What else has the author written, and how received?  Consider the audience of the author's writing.  Are there any significant external events influencing the timing and context of the writing?

I find this background material can be even more helpful if you're not a SME  (like me with fighter a/c acquisition -- which is also why I hesitate to post in topics where I don't really have a clue, but that's a separate rant).  Otherwise, if you do a lot of reading in a particular field or subject, you begin to recognize 'trends.'  For example, when I get a new book on one or two particular topics, one of the first things I do is check the author's bio (to help determine the stuff above);  then look at the bibliography, which can suggest if the author is informed by a particular 'school of thought.'


All this to say, while my military career has been pretty high-speed, I can also be a thorough and discerning info geek (anything worth doing is worth doing to excess  ;D );  considering the author is just another part of considering the publication.
It works for me. 
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
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Online Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2430 on: January 10, 2019, 11:18:20 »


Of course I would actually advocate for the F-15X, not because I am some sort of dinosaur, but because the Eagle has one huge advantage over the "Panther"; long range. Canada needs to patrol the arctic and two long coastlines. We also have a history of force projection over continental distances, so having a fighter with long legs is very important. If the F-15X has or can be given the same sort of capabilities as the F-15E Strike Eagle, then we have a platform which can fulfill multiple roles for us (a Strike Eagle could carry weapons capable of striking ships at sea, such as a SDB that can glide over 100km to target, for example), plus in the new environment, a Strike Eagle can serve as the "arsenal aircraft" for Alliance F-35's slipping ahead to scout, identify and mark targets. Even if things go badly, the F-15 is still an actual fighter aircraft, so can fight its way in or out if necessary. Other mods to the Eagle platform include things like carrying 16 AAM's, so a few Eagles clearing a path for the rest of the force is also a possibility.

And future upgrades to the F-15X might even include the sort of sensor fusion technology which is the actual strong suit of the F-35.

I hate to say this, but I'd take a posting back to Cold Lake just to get my hands on a F-15X.

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2431 on: January 10, 2019, 12:08:02 »
Have you ever checked the profile of a site member here?  (… and not just the ones who consistently make  "WTF?!!  :stars:" posts )  ;)


There are all sorts of peripheral factors that can help consideration of a book or article.  Information about author's background can provide insight and/or context into their writing, which can aid critical  readers in more effectively judging the work. (critical, as in objective analysis and evaluation, not incessantly bitchin' )  The info may help understand the author's purpose in writing.  Does the author have a track-record of strong bias, such that 'unhelpful' facts are routinely ignored to strengthen their argument?  Despite apparently writing well in this instance, is the author competent in the subject (eg: see the clarifying comments on the government's fiscal system by Good2Golf  here )?  Is there anything interesting, unusual, or significant in when and how they grew up?  Is the particular school and/or professor's mentorship noteworthy in potentially affecting their writing?  What else has the author written, and how received?  Consider the audience of the author's writing.  Are there any significant external events influencing the timing and context of the writing?

I find this background material can be even more helpful if you're not a SME  (like me with fighter a/c acquisition -- which is also why I hesitate to post in topics where I don't really have a clue, but that's a separate rant).  Otherwise, if you do a lot of reading in a particular field or subject, you begin to recognize 'trends.'  For example, when I get a new book on one or two particular topics, one of the first things I do is check the author's bio (to help determine the stuff above);  then look at the bibliography, which can suggest if the author is informed by a particular 'school of thought.'


All this to say, while my military career has been pretty high-speed, I can also be a thorough and discerning info geek (anything worth doing is worth doing to excess  ;D );  considering the author is just another part of considering the publication.
It works for me.

Understood, I do the same at times. Just seemed out of left field criticizing a students employment status.

Can anyone weigh the pros and cons of the F-15X vs its (F-35) competitors?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2432 on: January 10, 2019, 12:14:45 »
Understood, I do the same at times. Just seemed out of left field criticizing a students employment status.

Can anyone weigh the pros and cons of the F-15X vs its (F-35) competitors?

Here's a few posts from our resident fighter SME:   

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,120786.msg1557393.html#msg1557393

and

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,120786.msg1557416.html#msg1557416
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2433 on: January 10, 2019, 16:59:59 »
And for those interested in understanding better how Canadian federal funds are planned, allocated and expenses for Defence purposes, a reference to Dr. Perry’s piece in the Canadian Global Affairs Institute archives makes for informative reading.  Perry remains one of the most well-informed academics regarding Canadian Government Defence budgeting and procurement:

The New Defence Policy Needs to Focus on Procurement, Not Prose

The general description of fiscal framework, accrual space, investment cash and Defence budgeting is approx. mid-way through the op-ed piece.

Regards
G2G

Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2434 on: January 10, 2019, 21:04:03 »
Other mods to the Eagle platform include things like carrying 16 AAM's, so a few Eagles clearing a path for the rest of the force is also a possibility.


Boeing has a new ordnance pod that jacks that number upto 24, combined with the F-15's endurance a six pack of F-15X's equipped for Air to air combat have enough missiles to take down the entire combat inventory of a small to medium sized country. If we don't purchase the F-35 we are probably out of the first strike game, however given China and Russia are claiming to have radars that can pick up the F-35, if those start getting sold to others, then I'd think payload would become important to take the fight to the enemy and keep them on their back foot. This is only my opinion however and I fully admit I only know as much as I read and have no experience working with fighter craft.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2435 on: January 10, 2019, 22:01:11 »
First day of war matters aside, does not the F-15X' very large missile load, range, and burst speed make it the best fit for the NORAD mission--the only one that is absolutely critical for RCAF and Canada (called defence against er, USAF, help, i.e. sovereignty)? For F-35As to do decent air defence role would they not have to carry external AAMs, so their stealth no longer relevant?

Real question.

Mark
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Online Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2436 on: January 11, 2019, 00:17:39 »
If we went with purely modern F-15's, we could still contribute to both NORAD and expeditionary events. Against a near peer, the US/UK and other F35 operator push into the contested areas, with the F-15 loaded to the max coming in, with the F-35 targeting and the F-15's using up their payload and the F-35's taking out remaining aircraft/defenses.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2437 on: January 11, 2019, 09:47:24 »
Something like the weapons pod demonstrated by the Advanced Super Hornet could likely be developed for the F-35 as well, allowing it to carry more ordinance on the first day of the war. 

Of course if the actual job is clearing the skies, the F-22 should have a pod developed so it can slide in and use its stealth and air superiority advantages coupled to a much larger weapons load out. The F-15X arsenal plane's role in this could be to fill the sky with decoys like the MALD, giving the enemy a much more difficult time to figure out where the F-22s and other fighters are (assuming the claims for counter stealth radar are true: the Russians were said to have anti stealth radar as far back as the late 1980's, but this didn't stop the development of the F-22, F-35 or B-21).

And the RCAF could take the lead role with F-15X's in the second day of the war, as enemy sensors, missiles and planes have been attritted, preserving the stealth aircraft for the highest priority targets.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Baz

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2438 on: January 11, 2019, 11:42:51 »
If we wanted to be a player in the first day, we could give the Navy TLAMs...

Offline Thucydides

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2439 on: January 11, 2019, 15:12:58 »
If we wanted to be a player in the first day, we could give the Navy TLAMs...

There you go, bringing logic to the argument again..... ;)
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2440 on: January 11, 2019, 18:35:58 »
May be instead of going for the cream-of-the-cream of the fighter world, we could go for the latest version of the F-16 Block 70, which I understand incorporates some technology derived from the F-35/F-22.

Quote
  Meet the F-16 Block 70

The F-16 Block 70 is unlike any fighter jet seen before. The Block 70 is the newest and most advanced F-16 production configuration, combining numerous capability and structural upgrades.

The Block 70 builds on its thousands of predecessors and proven combat experience, while also bringing new technology to the forefront. With improved radar systems, advanced weapons capabilities and enhanced battlespace awareness, the aircraft advances its strong, combat-proven legacy and goes beyond – to meet needs for tomorrow.

The F-16 Block 70 combines capability upgrades, most notably the advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar with a new avionics architecture, and structural upgrades to extend the structural life of the aircraft by more than 50 percent beyond that of previous production F-16 aircraft. F-16 Block 70 software takes advantage of technologies not available when earlier Block F-16s were developed and produced. Operational capabilities are enhanced through an advanced datalink, targeting pod and weapons; precision GPS navigation and the Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS).

Advanced Weapons

Lockheed Martin has more than 36 years of weapon integration experience with the F-16. No other organization can match this weapons integration experience. In concert with the U.S. Air Force and multiple F-16 Foreign Military Sales customers, Lockheed Martin has certified more than 3,300 carriage and release configurations for greater that 180 weapon and store types. Our experience as a weapon integrator has enabled the F-16 to be one of the most versatile multirole fighters ever.

Advanced AESA Radar

Northrop Grumman’s advanced APG-83 AESA radar delivers greater situational awareness, flexibility and quicker all-weather targeting. The APG-83 provides pilots with unprecedented target area detail and digital map displays that can be tailored with slew and zoom features. The APG-83 provides F-16s with 5th Generation fighter radar capabilities by leveraging hardware and software commonality with F-22 and F-35 AESA radars.

Enhanced Battlespace Awareness

Another key feature of the F-16 Block 70 configuration is the new Center Pedestal Display (CPD), which provides critical tactical imagery to pilots on a high-resolution 6”x 8” screen. The high-resolution display allows pilots to take full advantage of AESA and targeting pod data. The new CPD enables color moving maps, larger and easier to manage air-to-air Situation Displays, zoom functionality with the ability to switch information among displays, and a digital display of Flight Instrument Data. The CPD is also compatible with the Night Vision Imaging System.
 
Auto GCAS

The Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS) was purpose-built to prevent deadly crashes and has already saved the lives of seven pilots and six F-16s since the system entered service with the U.S. Air Force in late 2014. The Auto GCAS is designed to reduce incidents of what is known as controlled flight into terrain, or CFIT. According to U.S. Air Force statistics, CFIT incidents account for 26 percent of aircraft losses and a staggering 75 percent of all F-16 pilot fatalities.

The F-16 Auto GCAS system is currently being integrated into the U.S. Air Force’s F-16 fleet and the Air Force and Lockheed Martin plan to develop similar systems for the F-22 and F-35. Current plans call for fielding an Auto GCAS on the F-35 by 2019. The F-35 Joint Program Office estimates the Auto GCAS will prevent more than 26 ground collisions during the service of the F-35 fleet.

Article Link
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2441 on: January 12, 2019, 18:29:28 »
What if we took a look at the US Air forces High low concept, and applied it at the strategic level in NORAD/NATO, USA being the high, and us being the low. A block 70 F-16 or a F-15X both look attractive if we are looking for an aircraft for that kind of role.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2442 on: January 12, 2019, 19:22:20 »
In the NORAD role that would mean giving USAF primary responsibility for defending within Canadian airspace and its approaches--Canadian politicians willing to accept that help?

Mark
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2443 on: January 13, 2019, 14:54:41 »
Based on how they seem to treat the RCAF/CAF in general, I don't think any of them actually really care...
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2444 on: January 14, 2019, 16:23:14 »
Will Airbus threaten to close down Bombardier's A220 line at Mirabel if Eurofighter loses out? New non-union plant at Mobile, Alabama surely cheaper:

Quote
Eurofighter Typhoon to bid to replace Canadian CF-18 fleet

Eurofighter intends to pitch its Typhoon aircraft to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force’s fleet of Boeing CF-18A/B Hornet fighters.

Eurofighter, a joint venture among Airbus, BAE Systems and Leonardo, was assumed to be one of the bidders in the competition to replace the RCAF’s fighter fleet with 88 advanced jets, but it hadn’t yet publicly acknowledged its desire to play for the contract. Simon Jacques, head of Airbus defense and space in Canada, said at a company event in Montreal that his firm intends to submit a proposal for the Typhoon.

“We are very engaged,” he says. “We want to propose the Typhoon, the most advanced new generation multi, swing-role fighter on the market today."

In October, RCAF issued a draft request for proposal to replace its aging CF-18A/B fleet. Ottawa listed five suppliers eligible to compete: Dassault Aviation, maker of the Rafale; Saab, maker of the JAS 39 Gripen; Airbus Defense – on behalf of the Eurofighter joint venture, maker of the Typhoon; Lockheed Martin, maker of the F-16 and F-35; and Boeing, maker of the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-15E Strike Eagle. Only those five will be allowed to submit proposals.

The RCAF plans to receive initial proposals from bidders between summer and winter 2019. A contract is anticipated to be awarded during the winter months of 2021-2022.

Canada wants initial aircraft to be delivered in 2025, with initial operational capability achieved by 2026. The government wants all aircraft delivered by 2031 or 2032 [emphasis added], at which time the CF-18 fleet will be retired.

Jacques says the Eurofighter bid will include some sort of participation from Canadian manufacturers [emphasis added], though the type of involvement in the aircraft’s supply chain or extent was not specified.

"With our Canadian partners, it is going to be a Canadian solution and a good value for Canada," he says. "The RFP is coming out in mid of this year, right before the election."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/eurofighter-typhoon-to-bid-to-replace-canadian-cf-18-455004/

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Offline Uzlu

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2445 on: January 15, 2019, 08:00:14 »
Will Airbus threaten to close down Bombardier's A220 line at Mirabel if Eurofighter loses out?
Another possibility:
Quote
Airbus open to a fighter plane assembly plant in Quebec ahead of federal bids

MIRABEL, Que. -- Airbus is not ruling out the possibility that Quebec will host a fighter plane assembly line and satellite construction plant if the European giant manages to win federal contracts in Canada.

Simon Jacques, head of Canadian operations for the multinational, mentioned the possibility Monday at a company event in Mirabel, an off-island Montreal suburb, where it manufactures A220 jetliners, previously known as the Bombardier C Series.

A call for tenders for 88 new fighter planes is expected from Ottawa before the start of the 2019 election campaign in a bid to replace the government's aging CF-18s. Airbus makes the Eurofighter Typhoon.

"Absolutely," Jacques said, when asked if the assembly line could be in Quebec. "We're evaluating our options."

Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Saab are all in the running alongside Airbus for the federal contract.

Jacques said the construction of a new assembly line, which would create numerous jobs, would not pose a logistical challenge given the extra space at the Mirabel plant.

He stressed the need for a "Canadian solution," given that the call for tenders would include local content requirements.

In 2016 Airbus landed its first major contract with Ottawa, which ordered 16 search and rescue aircraft under a $2.4-billion agreement, on top of a pledge for $2.3 billion in maintenance and after-sales service for 20 years. The first vehicle must be delivered by the end of 2019.

The CF-18s put into service in the 1980s were set to be phased out by 2020, but their replacement has turned into a drawn-out saga.

Six years ago, the Harper government abandoned its controversial plans to purchase untendered F-35 fighter jets to take the place of the aging fleet. The Trudeau government, which had subsequently decided to buy 18 Super Hornet aircraft from Boeing -- also without a tender -- cancelled that purchase in 2017 in the wake of a commercial dispute between Boeing and Bombardier over the C Series.

According to Jacques, Canada is "really committed" to "stimulating competition," which may open a door to a manufacturer other than the U.S.-based Boeing.

"I think it's important for Canada to have a different fleet from what is in the United States 1/8with Boeing 3/8," he said, calling the prospect "a good thing for NORAD 1/8North American Aerospace Defense Command 3/8."

Jacques suggested Canada could learn from the United Kingdom, which counts counts Airbus and Lockheed Martin aircraft among its fighter fleet.

Airbus executives also said the Netherlands-based company may turn to Quebec for satellite construction if its proposal is accepted up by Telesat Canada, a satellite operator.

The company had solicited offers from Airbus and the France-based Thales Group as part of an Internet service project tied to the launch of "between 300 and 500 satellites," Jacques said.

"This would change the situation in Quebec," he said, adding that the project would create about 200 new jobs.

Airbus said it is having ongoing discussions with various levels of government, including Quebec and Ottawa, to set up shop in the province if the multinational wins the contract.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/airbus-open-to-a-fighter-plane-assembly-plant-in-quebec-ahead-of-federal-bids-1.4253284

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2446 on: January 15, 2019, 08:37:04 »
Well that pretty much decides what aircraft the RCAF is going to get.

Was this how we got the Griffon; the company set up in Mirabel?

Bombardier set up an auto mfg assembly line paid for by the then Dept of Regional Industrial Expansion and/or the Dept of Regional Economic Expansion, we got the Iltis. Years later, a new paid for assembly line, and we got the MLVW.

Correct me if I am wrong.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:51:11 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2447 on: January 15, 2019, 11:41:23 »
The Bell Helicopter plant was already in Mirabel many years before the Griffon contract. 

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2448 on: January 15, 2019, 12:18:41 »
Eurofighter is $136M CAD per aircraft. Sounds like a great deal.... :facepalm:

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2449 on: January 15, 2019, 12:23:41 »
What was Bell manufacturing? Seems to me these companies pave the way for future Gov't purchases.
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