Author Topic: Griffon locations by numbers  (Read 10878 times)

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Offline Messerschmitt

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Griffon locations by numbers
« on: September 30, 2015, 21:39:59 »
Anyone happen to know the numbers at each squadron for Griffons?

The website says 88 total, and the locations, but I can't find anywhere the amount each squadron has.

Also, are Borden and St-Hubert full time postings or part-time only for Griffons?

Cheers.

Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 00:10:13 »
I think that your question about the numbers of how many helos are at each unit is bordering on operational security issues (thus the reason why you can't find this info), especially with a former unit of mine that does not discuss these sorts of things.  Others may feel comfortable answering with specific numbers, but I don't and quite frankly I'm not sure why you need to know.  However, I will speak in generalities.  Larger units are 403, 408, 427, and 430 Sqns.  Smaller, but not less important, are the Combat Support Sqns in Cold Lake, Bagotville, and Goose Bay and of course 400 and 438 Sqns.  Plus, there are some Griffons at other locations, but not in large numbers.

400 Sqn (Borden) is now an Air Maintenance Sqn for the Griffons and 438 Sqn (St. Hubert) is a Total Force unit.  Both have mixtures of Regular and Reserve force members.  So, to answer your somewhat confusing question, yes, there are Regular force members at both units and yes, they only operate Griffons at those units.  Also, some Reserve force mbrs are "full time", i.e. Class C.
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Offline Leeworthy

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 16:05:00 »
I agree with the above, providing numbers and locations for military operational aircraft borderlines on OPSEC issues, and you will be hard-pressed with someone providing you the numbers on a public forum, especially with all the going's on lately.

Offline CBH99

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 17:45:09 »
I'm curious...

The initial purchase was for 100 airframes.  88 are still in service.

I understand we lost a few (curious as to how many?) due to accidents.   Where did the other airframes go?
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Offline Ditch

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 19:46:51 »
Some airframes were transferred/sold to KFC/AW (Southport) and renamed the B-412CF
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Offline winnipegoo7

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 21:08:17 »
I'm not sure that these sites are up to date, but if you are bored and willing to compare the three sites and do the 'math' you can probably get a good estimate on numbers by squadron.

http://rwrwalker.ca/CH146_detailed_1.html
http://www.canadianwings.com/Aircraft/Database/listpage.php?page=921
http://www.helis.com/database/model/571/

Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 23:31:05 »
I'm curious...

The initial purchase was for 100 airframes.  88 are still in service.

I understand we lost a few (curious as to how many?) due to accidents.   Where did the other airframes go?

One Griffon from Goose Bay crashed with the loss of two pilots and another crashed while taking off at a FOB in Afghanistan with the loss of the Flight Engineer, Door Gunner, and a British Officer.  RIP my friends.

Of course there have been some hard landings, but the helos were repaired.  As per the other posts, some were transferred/sold for next to nothing to a civilian entity for pilot training.  These were modified with glass cockpits and some other things and renamed the Bell 412CF.  They are no longer possessed by the military and thus I didn't include this location in my initial response.

Edit: forgot about another one that crashed in Labrador (issue was whiteouts with inexperience using NVGs) and was totally lost.  No loss of life here, but some frostbite issues.  I think that I've covered all that were totally lost (x3).  Anyone with additional info/corrections, please let me know.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 23:35:27 by Scoobs »
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Offline MCG

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2015, 01:04:34 »
What happened to the aircraft that killed the power to Yellowknife?  I have heard it was quite the mess after the fact.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2015, 07:18:53 »
Repaired.

Offline Strike

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2015, 08:41:09 »
I'm not sure that these sites are up to date, but if you are bored and willing to compare the three sites and do the 'math' you can probably get a good estimate on numbers by squadron.

http://rwrwalker.ca/CH146_detailed_1.html
http://www.canadianwings.com/Aircraft/Database/listpage.php?page=921
http://www.helis.com/database/model/571/

Keep in mind that the numbers of aircraft held by each squadron will also change on any given day depending on a multitude of factors - training needs, operational needs, maintenance, etc.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 18:33:36 »
Nomenclature for the Southport helos is CT-146 Outlaw.  Still based on the B412CF type certificate, as for the CH-146 Griffon, but with an upgraded Avionics Managent System (AMS) that more appropriately facilitates IFR training for rotary-wing students.

Scoops, did you ever see the video of 420 hitting the water a second te when the CHC S-61N dropped it from about 500' AGL...*ker-splash*

G2G

Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2015, 18:52:14 »
Yes, I remember now seeing that very grainy video.  I had forgotten about that.
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Offline Messerschmitt

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2015, 23:36:11 »
I'm not sure that these sites are up to date, but if you are bored and willing to compare the three sites and do the 'math' you can probably get a good estimate on numbers by squadron.

http://rwrwalker.ca/CH146_detailed_1.html
http://www.canadianwings.com/Aircraft/Database/listpage.php?page=921
http://www.helis.com/database/model/571/

Good database to build an idea. Some discrepancies.

Apparently there is only 1 SAR Griffon in Trenton? Also a significant number in Borden and St. Hubert, considering their suppose to be reserve air units. Are the pilots also reserve or reg force?

Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2015, 23:50:37 »
Good database to build an idea. Some discrepancies.

Apparently there is only 1 SAR Griffon in Trenton? Also a significant number in Borden and St. Hubert, considering their suppose to be reserve air units. Are the pilots also reserve or reg force?

I'm not sure of the exact number of Griffons in Trenton (I'll admit that I forgot about this location).

Again, why do you need to know the exact number?  OPSEC. OPSEC. OPSEC.  I remind all who post to this site that OPSEC is still your responsibility as a serving member even if you are posting under a nickname.  Period.  If you wish to discuss, PM me, I'll introduce myself, and we can discuss this in person.

Re-read the posts above.  Most of your questions are answered above.  Also, as per above, I did tell you that 400 Sqn is now an Air Maintenance Squadron.  It used to be called a "Total Force" unit, i.e. a combination of Regular and Reserve Force pers man it.  438 Sqn (St. Hubert) is still a Total Force unit, which once again answers your question about if the "pilots are reserve OR reg force".  TOTAL FORCE = combination of both.

Any more questions about numbers of aircraft at a unit on a public forum and I will ask the moderators to warn you.
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Offline Messerschmitt

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2015, 00:18:58 »
Fair enough, thanks for the info. For now wanted to play the game of probabilities where I might get assigned after/if I get my wings. Obviously more units at a squadron means more chances of getting assigned at one.

Regarding Gagetown, where is the squadron operating and stationed? I could not see any heliport/airbase inside the base. Is it Fredricton Intl Airport?

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2015, 00:34:19 »

Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2015, 00:37:21 »
403 Sqn is physically located on CFB Gagetown.  If you are posted to a Tac Hel Sqn that flies Griffons, as a pilot you will spend time there as the Griffon type courses (for pilots and FEs) are conducted there.

Understood about the probabilities, but you could get the necessary info that you want from what has already been posted, i.e. the "larger units are ....".  Take a look above and you'll see that your odds increase with the larger units.  From my experience (two Tac Hel units), most junior pilots that are posted to Tac Hel get posted to one of 408, 427, or 430 Sqns.  Now throw in 450 Sqn that flies the Chinook and this only adds more probabilities. 403 Sqn typically takes more experienced pilots as they will be instructors.  However, you could still be posted to 438 Sqn or one of the other smaller units.

I'm sure the pilots on this site could give you better advice, but I think that you're over thinking this.  If you want Tac Hel and are offered Tac Hel, then you'll be posted to where you are needed.  At the end of the day, you'll come to learn that postings are first assigned based on "the needs of the service", not the needs of the member.

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Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2015, 00:39:27 »
Really?

Wow, that was cool.  I didn't know that that could be done.  Cool link.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2015, 00:45:56 »
Wow, that was cool.  I didn't know that that could be done.  Cool link.

What, search Google?  ;)

I like to use this link when I hear people complain that they can't find information about X or Y....   :nod:

Offline CBH99

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2015, 00:48:04 »
Hey Scoobs,

Just curious.  You mentioned that junior pilots can be posted to 427 Sqn.  I always thought that 427 Sqn was the Special Operations Squadron, and supported CANSOF?

I'll admit it was just an assumption on my part, but I would have assumed that that level of flying would require a pretty substantial amount of skill/experience?
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 00:51:00 »
Fair enough, thanks for the info. For now wanted to play the game of probabilities where I might get assigned after/if I get my wings. Obviously more units at a squadron means more chances of getting assigned at one.

Not necessarily.  Not all units have the same pilot to aircraft ratio, so you shouldn't believe that your 'probability' of being posted to a particular unit is related to how many airframes may, or may not be at a given unit.

If you get to that point, you can request certain locations as a preference, but understand that the military will send you where it believes it needs you.  If that aligns with where you'd like to go, win-win.  If it's a single-win situation, odds are, it will be the military winning the first round.

:2c:

Offline Messerschmitt

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2015, 00:51:59 »
Really?

Was curious for where they physically keep the helicopters, but thanks.

@Scoobs. For Tachel I was looking at Borden, St. Hubert, Edmonton and maybe Gagetown. Would like to avoid Pet and especially Valcartier. Hence why my (probably repeated) questions regarding Borden and St. Hubert. Trenton would've been the best of them all but I guess I'm not going to make any hopes for that.

And ofc, the needs of the military always come first. But I did heard they do try their best to accommodate your preferences if possible. I still have a lil bit more time to decide against rotary and go fixed and then location will be easy, very high chance to stay in Trenton (almost) forever. But I personally find it awful to only push 1 button for 90% of the trip vs the hands on of a helicopter. But you do end up seeing the world.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 00:57:24 by Messerschmitt »

Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2015, 00:53:49 »
Hey Scoobs,

Just curious.  You mentioned that junior pilots can be posted to 427 Sqn.  I always thought that 427 Sqn was the Special Operations Squadron, and supported CANSOF?

I'll admit it was just an assumption on my part, but I would have assumed that that level of flying would require a pretty substantial amount of skill/experience?

Yes, 427 Sqn does perform that role.  I was posted there prior to the complete changeover to their new role.  Yes, the level of flying there is very high. Beyond that, I will say that every unit needs a mix of both experienced and new "blood".  How 427 operates could have changed, but especially with this unit I don't feel comfortable going any further in a public forum.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 00:54:33 »
Hey Scoobs,

Just curious.  You mentioned that junior pilots can be posted to 427 Sqn.  I always thought that 427 Sqn was the Special Operations Squadron, and supported CANSOF?

I'll admit it was just an assumption on my part, but I would have assumed that that level of flying would require a pretty substantial amount of skill/experience?

...as does teaching the next generation of pilots, etc... i.e. training units, etc...  Everyone wants to have experienced crew on squadron.  You also need a progression, so taking first-tour pilots to most units is not unreasonable.  In fact, about the only 1 Wing unit NOT likely to receive first-tour pilots is the 146 training squadron, not 427.

Cheers
G2G

Offline Scoobs

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2015, 00:57:39 »
Was curious for where they physically keep the helicopters, but thanks.

@Scoobs. For Tachel I was looking at Borden, St. Hubert, Edmonton and maybe Gagetown. Would like to avoid Pet and especially Valcartier. Hence why my (probably repeated) questions regarding Borden and St. Hubert. Trenton would've been the best of them all but I guess I'm not going to make any hopes for that.

And ofc, the needs of the military always come first. But I did heard they do try their best to accommodate your preferences if possible.

The post from Good2Golf right above yours answers this post the best.  I'll leave it to the operators now to give you advice on postings.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2015, 02:11:20 »
Tachel

Tac Hel.

Borden

Extremely unlikely, given the Squadron's role. Flying is limited, none of it is tactical, and the only requirement is for Maintenance Test Pilots.

Edmonton

Quite possible.

Gagetown

Not very likely, if at all, for a first tour.

Would like to avoid Pet and especially Valcartier.

Why?

I still have a lil bit more time to decide against rotary and go fixed and then location will be easy, very high chance to stay in Trenton (almost) forever.

Or get put on Auroras and end up in Greenwood or Comox.

Or Twin Otters in Yellowknife.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2015, 13:29:53 »
Was curious for where they physically keep the helicopters, but thanks.


https://skyvector.com/airport/CYCX/Gagetown-Heliport

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2015, 17:39:38 »
I still have a lil bit more time to decide against rotary and go fixed and then location will be easy, very high chance to stay in Trenton (almost) forever. But I personally find it awful to only push 1 button for 90% of the trip vs the hands on of a helicopter. But you do end up seeing the world.

Or maritime helicopters in Victoria/Halifax, and also see the world (albeit a lot of it while at sea).
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Offline Messerschmitt

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Re: Griffon locations by numbers
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2015, 19:52:57 »
Or Twin Otters in Yellowknife.

They represent less than 10% of the multi fleet. I gather chances are extremely low unless you ask for it.

Or maritime helicopters in Victoria/Halifax, and also see the world (albeit a lot of it while at sea).

And living on a ship... for 6 months... although very tempting with the new cyclones.

In the end I keep trying to remind myself that location shouldn't matter as long as I end up flying. Unless of course you end up on an airframe that you can barely get a flight a week, like I heard is the case with the jets.
However I have not heard of any rotary/fixed wing airframe where they don't fly regularly yet.