Author Topic: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote  (Read 82353 times)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote
« on: August 19, 2015, 18:57:43 »
I'm placing this in Military Affairs opposed to politics because of the strong military connection.

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of all these veteran groups speaking on behalf of all veterans. Specifically as of late, the 'Anyone But Harper Veterans'.

Lots of us have different definitions for what a veteran is. WW1&2 Vets, Bosnia & Afghanistan Vets, retired members.
The definition of a veteran is basically anyone who's served in the military. You could serve a week and get kicked out, you're a veteran. You're not special.

It really irks me how these guys, specifically the Anyone But Harper Vets, are suggesting they're speaking on behalf of all vets. They're not. Their whole platform reeks of using their "veteran card" to sway votes.  Canadian Soldiers are the 4th or 5th most trusted profession in Canada. We have an extremely good rapport with Canadians. These guys are trying to use that trust and faith, and the ol veteran card, to sway votes. Sadly it's working for some.  Social Media is full of Canadians chiming in to support them to the song of "help our military, help our soldiers".
It looks to me like most of the ABC vets are retired members. They sound more like pissed off teenagers trying to strike out against and punish Harper rather than caring about our present Military.  Voting for the Bloc will make our army stronger? Sure it will.

Worst of all are the POS's planning this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/08/17/veterans-launch-anyone-but-conservatives-campaign-during-harper-stop_n_8001188.html
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Veterans wearing their uniforms will be stationed near polls on election day in an effort to dissuade voters from supporting Harper
Pathetic.
Voters shouldn't be intimidated nor should someone be sitting by the polls trying to coheres voters.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 20:15:44 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline MCG

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2015, 19:10:27 »
What does it mean when it says "wearing their uniforms"?
I should hope this is not retired guys in thier pre-retirement military uniform.

Is political messaging (either protesting or campaigning) allowed at the polling stations on election day?

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2015, 19:34:15 »
Good post Jarnhamar.  The backlash has begun, and Veterans are becoming divided.  There are two sites I have seen today:

https://www.facebook.com/veteransagainstABC

https://www.facebook.com/vetsfortheCPC?notif_t=fbpage_fan_invite


Divided we fall.
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Offline Schindler's Lift

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2015, 20:05:01 »
Who I vote for is really relevant only to me and it's not something I normally discuss openly however which ever way I may choose to vote I certainly object to those who try to speak for me one way or the other.

Offline MJP

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2015, 20:06:09 »
I dislike the entire notion that one group can speak as a whole for all veterans especially when it comes to politics.  The fact they sound like clowns and look like North Korean Generals doesn't help.

Good post Jarnhamar.  The backlash has begun, and Veterans are becoming divided.  There are two sites I have seen today:

https://www.facebook.com/veteransagainstABC

https://www.facebook.com/vetsfortheCPC?notif_t=fbpage_fan_invite


Divided we fall.

I was on the veterans against ABC FB today.  Same sort of crap you see all over the net.  Their top banner says "we believe in bringing our veteran community together, not dividing us".  What do they have posted but a bunch of photos making fun of veterans belonging to other groups. 
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Offline MCG

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2015, 20:13:56 »
So, they are he other side of the same coin.

I would rather not see veteran's groups taking sides.  If they want to take a position on policy related to veterans, then I suppose they can argue the merits of that position.  Attacking or supporting specific politicians or parties can be left to individuals or the parties themselves.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2015, 20:18:19 »
Who I vote for is really relevant only to me and it's not something I normally discuss openly however which ever way I may choose to vote I certainly object to those who try to speak for me one way or the other.

As it should be.  I find it offensive that organizations and unions have become so politically vocal in their attempts to influence which way people vote.  The Ontario Election was really a shyte show in my opinion, with all the partisan politics being played out by the Civil Servants, the OPP, Teachers and other such organizations.  I don't agree with that type of tactics.  These Veterans groups are no different.  Leave the 'politicking' to the political Parties.  Leave the voting to the individuals.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2015, 20:24:07 »
Thank you George.

I dislike the entire notion that one group can speak as a whole for all veterans especially when it comes to politics.  The fact they sound like clowns and look like North Korean Generals doesn't help.

I was on the veterans against ABC FB today.  Same sort of crap you see all over the net.  Their top banner says "we believe in bringing our veteran community together, not dividing us".  What do they have posted but a bunch of photos making fun of veterans belonging to other groups.

These guys are using honourable service as a political-card and for me they're ont he same level as soldiers sleezing around for free beer on rememberence day or free coffee at tim hortons.
Just looked at that other site and I agree, so far it seems just to be pictures ridiculing the other. 
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2015, 21:11:08 »
Is political messaging (either protesting or campaigning) allowed at the polling stations on election day?

I would think that's highly illegal as well, I've never seen a candidate sign within a block of a polling station...

Offline Teager

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2015, 21:49:24 »
I read an article about these guys a week or so ago. They are still calling for pension instead of a lump sum. Sorry but lump sum is here to stay no matter what party is in charge. They did not seem to be up to date on veterans issues and where things are at now. Are there still issues? Yes, but these guys don't speak for me either.

Hopefully Canadians will form there own opinions without the influence of all these groups who all have there own agendas.

Offline Pusser

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2015, 09:33:12 »
Voters shouldn't be intimidated nor should someone be sitting by the polls trying to coheres voters.

Which is why it's illegal to campaign within a certain distance of polling stations. 

These guys could also run afoul of the National Defence Act if the uniforms they intend to wear are their CF uniforms:

   1)  if they're serving, they would be taking part in a political act, which is prohibited; or

   2)  if they're retired, they require written permission to wear a uniform (something they are unlikely to receive in this circumstance).
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Offline Jed

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2015, 10:12:13 »
Any group that advocates for Veteran's rights (privileges?) must be apolitical to maintain the public's respect for the Veteran.

One of the key tenants in AA (besides anonymity) is that you do not advertise your politics or affiliate with other organizations such that the main purpose of why people are a part of that organization do not lose sight of their goal of sobriety.

Veterans certainly do not need or want any of these destructive and divisive groups attempting to speak on behalf of all veterans.

the ABC Veteran group are a bunch of clowns, in my opinion, and I am ashamed to stand beside them.
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Offline SteadyPolaris

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2015, 10:59:34 »
Having been robocalled last election and sent to the wrong polling station I may disagree with the ban on polling station protests. I reported it to both the police and Elections Canada. As did people in 280 ridings and most especially roughly 100 close ridings where it was widespread. This was the most massive election fraud in Canadian history.

Offline Remius

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2015, 11:01:41 »
Having been robocalled last election and sent to the wrong polling station I may disagree with the ban on polling station protests. I reported it to both the police and Elections Canada. As did people in 280 ridings and most especially roughly 100 close ridings where it was widespread. This was the most massive election fraud in Canadian history.

That's a completely different issue than what is being discussed here.
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Offline SteadyPolaris

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2015, 11:08:58 »
That's a completely different issue than what is being discussed here.

Not to me. There was widespread cheating that I saw personally. It was never even investigated. It was covered up. Since people cannot get justice through the courts they should protest.

I always thought my party right or wrong was a Liberal thing. Cheating is not a Conservative value. White washing this was a huge mistake. Many in our local riding assoc have quit over it.

Offline Remius

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2015, 11:18:39 »
Not to me. There was widespread cheating that I saw personally. It was never even investigated. It was covered up. Since people cannot get justice through the courts they should protest.

I always thought my party right or wrong was a Liberal thing. Cheating is not a Conservative value. White washing this was a huge mistake. Many in our local riding assoc have quit over it.

Again, that issue is not what the OP or the others contributing are discussing.  Go back, read.  Go back again if necessary.  This is about the appropriateness of veterans and possibly serving members acting in a way that may be unbecoming and possibly illegal.

Robocalls, and electoral fraud or whatever is something else.  I'm pretty sure we have another thread for that.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2015, 12:33:28 »
(Putting on my Nomex coveralls here)

I'm personally in favour of the ABC campaign.

I see people quite often come out with this "veteran groups speaking on behalf of all veterans" claim.  When you challenge them on it, and ask them to cite an instance where any of these types of groups have claimed to speak on behalf of all veterans, you always get silence in response.  Nobody is speaking on behalf of all veterans, including the Royal Canadian Legion - although they may be the biggest offenders when it comes to claiming they and they alone represent veterans.

I'm also quite certain that the author of the HuffPost article took some literary license when stating that veterans would be showing up in their uniforms.  Vets know the rules and their "uniform" is a beret and medals with varying types of outfits, such as blazers, motorcycle vests, etc.

What I'm finding is that the people who have a problem with the ABC-Veterans campaign are of the "C" persuasion.  Not all, but most.  Looking at the offshoot groups that were quoted earlier opposing the ABC campaign, I see quite a few familiar faces that I've encountered in other contexts, and are going to vote "C" even if you had a gun to their head.

The ABC - Veterans campaign is not telling anyone how to vote.  They're making it perfectly clear what you're going to get if nothing changes.

As for unions telling their members how to vote, I call BS.  The following is the last statement my own union made on the subject (in regard to the passing of C-59, and the included provisions to unilaterally impose changes to the sick leave system):  "There is little more to say at this stage.  I only hope all members have long enough memories to remember this day when the time comes to vote in the next federal election".  Now I'm a member of a small union, but even the big guys know better than to tell anyone how to vote.  Most union members are able to perform target identification quite well without any assistance.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2015, 12:41:07 »

The ABC - Veterans campaign is not telling anyone how to vote. 

If "Anyone But Conservative" is not telling anyone how to vote, then I failed English in school.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2015, 12:48:05 »
If "Anyone But Conservative" is not telling anyone how to vote, then I failed English in school.

You can vote Lib.
You can vote NDP.
You can vote Green.
You can vote Independent.
You can vote Rhinoceros.
You can vote Conservative...and here's what you're going to get...etc.

How is that telling someone where exactly to put the X on their ballot?

Offline Jed

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2015, 12:58:13 »
You can vote Lib.
You can vote NDP.
You can vote Green.
You can vote Independent.
You can vote Rhinoceros.
You can vote Conservative...and here's what you're going to get...etc.

How is that telling someone where exactly to put the X on their ballot?

You are telling them DO NOT VOTE CONSERVATIVE. Kind of comes off like an order or at the very least, firm direction.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2015, 13:06:10 »
(Putting on my Nomex coveralls here)

I'm personally in favour of the ABC campaign.
Fair enough. And like the majority of the ABC vets you're retired and not directly affected by changes to the Canadian Forces anymore.  Budget cuts, equipment shortfalls, shitty rules of engagement, not your problem.

Quote
I see people quite often come out with this "veteran groups speaking on behalf of all veterans" claim.  When you challenge them on it, and ask them to cite an instance where any of these types of groups have claimed to speak on behalf of all veterans, you always get silence in response.

Check their delivery. 

Help your Veterans.
Support your Veterans. 
Veterans against Harper.
During the Afghan war 178 Canadian Soldiers committed suicide compared to 158 soldiers killed in Combat (So Harper is now some how responsible for soldiers killing themselves from a number of reasons including bad relationships, including soldiers who killed themselves who didn't even deploy to Afghanistan. right)
We support our Veterans, Anyone But Conservatives.

These guys are a small minority of mostly retired members who are playing the Veteran card to try and sway voters.


Quote
Nobody is speaking on behalf of all veterans, including the Royal Canadian Legion - although they may be the biggest offenders when it comes to claiming they and they alone represent veterans.
No love from me for the Legion and I think they're guilty of the same thing but ABC is a lot louder and more direct.

Quote
I'm also quite certain that the author of the HuffPost article took some literary license when stating that veterans would be showing up in their uniforms.
We'll see at election time.

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Vets know the rules and their "uniform" is a beret and medals with varying types of outfits, such as blazers, motorcycle vests, etc.
Now you're speaking on behalf of vets ;)

I'm going to disagree and suggest there's a lot of vets out there who don't know the rules, just like I'm sure a lot of serving members don't.



Speaking of uniforms this looks ridiculous. I really hope this doesn't pass as a uniform.




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The ABC - Veterans campaign is not telling anyone how to vote.  They're making it perfectly clear what you're going to get if nothing changes.
They ARE telling you (us) how to vote. They're saying don't vote for the conservatives. They may not be telling you a specific party TO vote for but they are still campaigning against one party, ergo trying to persuade your vote.
Especially so if they sit outside voting booths in some semblance of a uniform trying to use their Veteran Cards.

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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2015, 13:11:04 »
You are telling them DO NOT VOTE CONSERVATIVE. Kind of comes off like an order or at the very least, firm direction.

Illustrating what will happen if they do vote Conservative is kind of the point, no? 

No guns are being held to anyone's head.  If people don't like the message that's being conveyed, nobody is holding them hostage to being a member of the group.  The fact that there are over 11,000 members of the ABC-Veteran Facebook group says to me that the message is resounding with a lot of people.

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2015, 13:24:56 »
Fair enough. And like the majority of the ABC vets you're retired and not directly affected by changes to the Canadian Forces anymore.  Budget cuts, equipment shortfalls, shitty rules of engagement, not your problem.

I wouldn't be too sure of that.  I may be retired from the CF, but I can assure you that I'm more familiar with the first two issues you mentioned than I ever was in uniform, and that's all I can say about that.   ;D
 
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These guys are a small minority of mostly retired members who are playing the Veteran card to try and sway voters.

You're certain of the demographic makeup of the group?  I'm in the group, and I can't even give you that.  The people speaking publicly on the issue are extremely familiar with veterans issues, and speaking to the topic of why veterans (and those who support veterans) should be unhappy with the level of performance of the current government.  I can tell you firsthand there's at least one member who previously voted blue (several times) and it's not happening again.  The campaigning would be going on regardless of which party was in power, if the quality of performance were the same.

Quote
Now you're speaking on behalf of vets ;)

No, I can assure you that anyone who showed up at an event in their former uniform would be ushered away.  If anything, retired members are more likely to think that they can't wear their former uniform when current regs actually permit it - such as Supp Res members on Remembrance Day, for example.

Quote
Speaking of uniforms this looks ridiculous. I really hope this doesn't pass as a uniform.

He's a veteran.  I agree the beret is askew, but is it really necessary for that to be the issue?  With all the other issues at hand, his beret is a topic of discussion?

Offline Jed

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2015, 13:52:55 »
I wouldn't be too sure of that.  I may be retired from the CF, but I can assure you that I'm more familiar with the first two issues you mentioned than I ever was in uniform, and that's all I can say about that.   ;D
 
You're certain of the demographic makeup of the group?  I'm in the group, and I can't even give you that.  The people speaking publicly on the issue are extremely familiar with veterans issues, and speaking to the topic of why veterans (and those who support veterans) should be unhappy with the level of performance of the current government.  I can tell you firsthand there's at least one member who previously voted blue (several times) and it's not happening again.  The campaigning would be going on regardless of which party was in power, if the quality of performance were the same.

No, I can assure you that anyone who showed up at an event in their former uniform would be ushered away.  If anything, retired members are more likely to think that they can't wear their former uniform when current regs actually permit it - such as Supp Res members on Remembrance Day, for example.

He's a veteran.  I agree the beret is askew, but is it really necessary for that to be the issue?  With all the other issues at hand, his beret is a topic of discussion?


His actions and deportment are opening up all veterans for mockery.  Read my original points about taking political stands and how that casts disparagement on all veterans.  I would feel the same way if ABC meant Anybody But Commies (NDP and lefty Liberals).
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Offline Haggis

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2015, 14:00:56 »
Is political messaging (either protesting or campaigning) allowed at the polling stations on election day?

It is, under the Canada Elections Act, S.166(1)c:

"166. (1) No person shall

(a) post or display in, or on the exterior surface of, a polling place any campaign literature or other material that could be taken as an indication of support for or opposition to a political party that is listed on the ballot under the name of a candidate or the election of a candidate;

(b) while in a polling station, wear any emblem, flag, banner or other thing that indicates that the person supports or opposes any candidate or political party that is listed on the ballot under the name of a candidate, or the political or other opinions entertained, or supposed to be entertained, by the candidate or party; and

(c) in a polling station or in any place where voting at an election is taking place, influence electors to vote or refrain from voting or vote or refrain from voting for a particular candidate."

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