Author Topic: Obligatory Service in the CAF  (Read 105799 times)

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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2015, 11:20:13 »
So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.

You will be training or employed as an Intelligence Officer, or whatever trade you accepted.  However, if you are needed to fill sandbags during a national emergency, for example, and your unit lets you go, then you could be tasked to do that as well.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2015, 11:23:02 »
So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.

Sure, everyone of us could theoretically be used as a "foot soldier", but that's not going to happen. If you are accepted into the ROTP program as an Intelligence Officer, then an IntO you shall be. The people of Canada just paid roughly $120,000 for you to get a degree (getting paid while so doing), there are going to want you to use your degree and do the job of an IntO. There are a few confusing aspects about "Obligatory Service" of which you should be aware. I will try and describe them.

1. When you enroll, you will be given an initial contract of 12 years (13 for some trades). This is know as your Variable Initial Engagement (VIE). The first 4 years will be spent at University, meaning when you grauate, you will have 8 (or 9) years left on your contract.

2. The Canadian taxpayer is paying for your Univeristy education. The Obligatory Service is meant to pay the Canadian Taxpayer back through service. It is calculated as 2 months of service for every 1 month of subsidized education, thus 8 months in a school year x 4 years = 32 months x 2 months = 64 months = 5.3 years Obligatory Service.

3. Obligatory service is not conscription. You are not legally required to serve your Obligatory service. Even if you enroll in ROTP and get a degree fully subsidized, you can start your release paperwork and release from the Canadian Armed Forces on Graduation day. The thing is, since you haven't paid the subsidized education back with service, you will have to pay it back with cash. I know a few guys who did this just because they wanted to get a degree from RMC, and Mom and Dad had $80,000 cash sitting around to pay the government back after graduation.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2015, 11:24:30 »
So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.

You do realize that ROTP is a program sponsored by the Department of National Defence.  If you are accepted, you are enrolled into the Canadian Armed Forces as an Officer Cadet in one of the three Elements: Land, Sea, or Air (Army, Navy or Air Force).  As such you WILL BE a 'soldier', 'sailor' or an 'airman' (Sorry. Not PC).  During your obligatory service you WILL BE employed as a 'soldier', 'sailor' or 'airman' who as an officer will command persons under you and be employed wherever the Canadian Armed Forces deems it necessary. 

So, if you are to become an officer in the Army, then you will be employed as a 'soldier' in command of other 'soldiers'.  If in the Navy, you will be employed as a 'sailor' in charge of 'sailors'.  Same for the Air Force.  As this is the Canadian Armed Forces, you most likely will, as an officer, be 'commanding' a mix of 'soldiers', 'sailors' and 'airmen' (sorry not PC) sometimes over your career.
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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2016, 01:00:36 »
Greetings,

Due to unforeseen circumstances and other variables, I have decided to VR from the reg force. I was ROTP for 3 years ( Mil Col) and had transferred from NCM --hence my pay stayed the same while I was in school. I have not received any trade training and am currently waiting for paper work. Yesterday I was given a figure of the amount I owe and, to say the least, it is drastically higher than other colleagues of mine who have VR'd as well. Does anyone know how the pay back is calculated? My release section appears to be clueless and am having a hard time getting answers.

Also, is it possible to apply my pension to the amount I owe? Again, this has happened with my colleagues but my release section has no idea.

I have looked through these forums and conducted research. Apart from the very general and vague description of what is owed etc. I cant find numbers or calculations. I really hope some of you can shed some light on this topic. I thank you for your time and look forward to reading your comments.  :salute:

Offline Lumber

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2016, 08:35:11 »
Nothing official, but I was told it was the education costs (tuition, books, supplies, etc) as well as the salary paid to you during the school year (you get to keep what they paid you during the summer training months). Not sure if this is true, but if you we're being paid Pte/Cpl pay during the school year, this might explain why it's so high. Again, this is just hearsay. Can I ask (possibly by PM) what 3 years of ROTP is apparently going to cost you?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2016, 09:05:34 »
A quick check for "Obligatory Service" identified DAOD 5049-1 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5049-1.page), which in turn steers you to QR&O 15.07 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-15.page#cha-015-07) for the way the calculation is made.

Quote
15.07 - VOLUNTARY RELEASE AFTER SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION OR TRAINING
 
(1) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of article 15.02 (Release as of Right), the Chief of the Defence Staff may prescribe those courses in respect of which an officer or non-commissioned member who has attended on full-time paid duty shall not be released on his request under Item 4 of the table to article 15.01 (Release of Officers and Non-commissioned Members), unless he has served the minimum period as determined by the Chief of the Defence Staff, which period shall not be of less than 12 months duration.
 
(2) Where in the opinion of the Chief of Defence Staff special and unforeseen circumstances require that an officer or non-commissioned member apply for his release prior to the completion of the minimum period of service referred to in paragraph (1), the member's release may be approved if the exigencies of the service permit; however, approval of release for other than compassionate reasons is contingent on the member refunding all or a portion of the cost incurred by the public, determined under paragraph (3), for his attendance at courses as prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff.
 
(3) Where under paragraph (2) all or a portion of the cost incurred by the public is to be reimbursed, the amount of that reimbursement shall be:
 a.the total cost incurred by the public in providing the course, if the release occurs within 12 months of the commencement of the required minimum period of service; or
 b.that part of the cost incurred by the public that is the equivalent in ratio of the number of months still to be served (part of a month being reckoned as a full month), to the total number of months of the minimum period of service, if the release occurs within that required minimum period of service but more than 12 months after commencement of that period.
 
(4) The cost incurred by the public on which reimbursement shall be based shall be:
 a.the amount paid by the Crown either directly to the institution providing the instruction or by reimbursement of the officer or non-commissioned member for fees or any other costs arising out of or attributable to his attendance under instruction, but in the case of an officer attending a Canadian Military College the amount shall be the fees and expenses as prescribed in the Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Military Colleges; and
 b.except for any period during which the member performed normal service duties, pay and allowances including the rate of subsistence allowance for his rank and status, whether in issue or not, applicable from time to time in the period for which he attended the course, but not including i.transportation and travelling expenses provided to send him and his dependents, furniture and effects to or from the course,
 ii.any assisted leave transportation benefits extended to him, or
 iii.income tax deductions applicable to that period.
 

(5) Notwithstanding this article, the Minister may authorize a reduction in the portion to be refunded by the officer or non-commissioned member to such reasonable part of the cost incurred by the public as he may consider appropriate, having regard to any special and unforeseen circumstances.
 
(G)
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2016, 09:20:22 »
Yesterday I was given a figure of the amount I owe and, to say the least, it is drastically higher than other colleagues of mine who have VR'd as well.

For future reference, perhaps this discussion will be merged with,

Voluntary Release after Subsidized Education 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=108552.0

My release is contingent on the repayment figure, I have no problem repaying ~$20,000 dollars if it means I can release, but anything greater and I will have to hang around. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 09:58:29 by mariomike »

Offline Calvillo

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #107 on: June 07, 2016, 11:02:27 »
1. When you enroll, you will be given an initial contract of 12 years (13 for some trades). This is know as your Variable Initial Engagement (VIE). The first 4 years will be spent at University, meaning when you grauate, you will have 8 (or 9) years left on your contract.

Can you please expound on this VIE? Does this mean that after 4 years at the College and 5 years Obligatory Service an Officer still needs to serve in the Forces for another 3 or 4 years?

Offline sidemount

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #108 on: June 07, 2016, 11:09:30 »

When you are done your obligitory service you are still under a contract. However you can still release if you like...it just takes some time. You are no longer have a financial obligation to pay back for school if you decide to release.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #109 on: June 07, 2016, 11:22:51 »
Can you please expound on this VIE? Does this mean that after 4 years at the College and 5 years Obligatory Service an Officer still needs to serve in the Forces for another 3 or 4 years?

Yes.
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Offline Calvillo

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #110 on: June 16, 2016, 11:58:53 »
Is there any obligation to serve as an enlisted if one fails to complete RMCC and receive commission?

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #111 on: June 16, 2016, 13:10:09 »
Is there any obligation to serve as an enlisted if one fails to complete RMCC and receive commission?

I will attribute your use of the term "enlisted" to your ignorance of the subject and refrain from chastising you.  "Enlisted" is an Americanism; Canadians don't enlist, they enrol. The official terminology for soldiers who are not officers is "Non-Commissioned Members" (NCMs); for those of us who are past it, it used to be "Other Ranks" or "Men".

The reference for obligatory service is:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5049-1.page

That is only the starting point; the reference for ROTP (as listed in the references of the above) is CFAO 9-12.  CFAOs are no longer being amended nor are they available on the internet (only available internally).  A copy is, however, available on the wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20051228112450/http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-12_e.asp .  The portion of that CFAO applicable to your question is:

Quote
ACADEMIC TRAINING

36.    Academic Standards. To be eligible for continued financial assistance
an officer cadet of the ROTP must maintain an academic standard
satisfactory to both the officer cadet's academic institution and to NDHQ.
Where necessary, arrangements will be made for writing supplemental
examinations (see paragraph 39).

37.    Academic Reports. Commandants of CMCs and ULOs shall forward term,
final and supplemental examination results to NDHQ/DPCO for all members of
the ROTP. If it is considered that an officer cadet is not making
sufficient progress to warrant continued subsidization, the commandant of a
CMC or ULO, as appropriate, shall forward a full report to NDHQ/DPCO.

38.    Unsatisfactory Academic Results. The following provisions apply to an
officer cadet under the ROTP who fails to maintain a satisfactory academic
standard:

     a.   permission to repeat an academic year or up to two academic
          terms, at his/her own expense, may be requested provided the
          member has not previously failed and repeated an academic year or
          two academic terms. Applications to repeat shall be forwarded to
          NDHQ/DPCO for approval and must be supported by the
          recommendation of the commandant of the appropriate CMC or the
          appropriate ULO;

     b.   an officer cadet attending a civilian academic institution who
          incurs a credit deficiency by failing or dropping one or more
          courses, thus requiring one or more additional academic terms to
          resolve the deficiency, must do so at the officer cadet's
          expense. During such a period, the officer cadet will be subject
          to the provisions of paragraph 35;

    c.   an officer cadet who is not recommended to repeat an academic
          year or term, or fails a repeat year or term, or is required to
          withdraw from an academic institution, may be considered for --

          (1)  continued military training under the OCTP,

          (2)  service as a NCM, or

          (3)  release from the CF;

     d.   an officer cadet who refuses to repeat an academic year or term
          may apply for one of the following:

          (1)  training under the OCTP,

          (2)  service as a NCM, or

          (3)  voluntary release from the CF in accordance with paragraphs
               26 and 27;

          An officer cadet who refuses to apply for any of the above
          options may be ordered to full-time service as an officer cadet
          pursuant to paragraph 28; and

     e.   notwithstanding subparagraphs a, b and c, an officer cadet who is
          not acceptable for further training or for whom there is no
          military requirement to warrant retention, may be compulsorily
          released.

39.    Supplemental Examinations. Fees for supplemental examinations will
not be paid by DND. When necessary, however, an officer cadet will be
excused military training in order to write such examinations. Where the
university requires that the supplemental examinations be written at a
place other than that where the officer cadet is training and before the
military training is completed, the commanding officer (CO) of the unit
where the officer cadet is training is authorized to return the member to
the university at public expense on approval of NDHQ/DPCO.
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Offline Calvillo

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #112 on: June 16, 2016, 14:06:25 »
Apologies. As I explained in the other thread, I am much more learned on the matters of U.S. Military than Canadian, for a number of reasons.

Thank you for the answer.

Offline juan24

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2018, 01:01:44 »
I have tried searching along the words of; time commitment, time owed, officer reserve, but to no avail. My wording is probably poor. I know I could have spent more time looking this up, but I currently don't have a lot of time because I'm trying to catch this summer's CAP course. Please guide me to the information.

I am wondering if there is time of service needed to pay back after serving and being trained as an officer in the CAF, for example, maybe after being trained after Phase 3, or Phase 4? I ask because I have heard Phase 4 in the reserve takes almost a year. That makes me think, if the CAF gives a member training for that long, means there is time commitment or needed to be paid back of service.

Hopefully my choice of words is not too poor with the paid/loan thing.

Thank you

To the people who reads this and do not know what CAP and Phase 3 or 4 are, they are courses needed to be taken to progress as an officer in the CAF, reserve. CAP and Phase 3 are in the summer, and Phase 4 is almost a year long, so you have to either be graduated already, or take time off school, or your full-time job if you already have a degree.

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2018, 01:35:11 »
There is no provision for obligatory service in the Reserve, as far as I know. Occupation training does not incur a requirement to serve for a specified period. What you are thinking of applies to subsidized education for members of the Regular Force.
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