Cost of housing in Canada

[Good2Golf]

We need to address the missing middle

Ontario's Condos are Getting Smaller as Detached Homes Get Larger

As a sign of the times, Ontario’s condos are getting (even) smaller, while detached homes are getting larger, according to recent data from MPAC.

storeys.com

I spoke with a developer recently and he said that the market demands from Millennials and GenZs are actually towards smaller units, and an open concept that blends social/gaming areas and have relatively smaller bedrooms, which to younger people are more like a sleeping chamber than bedrooms of the past.

 

[Kirkhill]

I spoke with a developer recently and he said that the market demands from Millennials and GenZs are actually towards smaller units, and an open concept that blends social/gaming areas and have relatively smaller bedrooms, which to younger people are more like a sleeping chamber than bedrooms of the past.

Kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

If -

1 person or 1 couple no kids
Life is on phone and computer (no radios, tvs or bookshelves)
Eating out or just nuking noodles and soups.

Social/Gaming area, sleeping chamber, galley and washroom -

Come to think of it that was my first walkup apartment in Calgary in 1980 - about 400 square feet for 400 dollars.

 

[Quirky]

Life is on phone and computer (no radios, tvs or bookshelves)

I agree with the smaller bedrooms, larger living space floorplans.

 

[lenaitch]

Kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

If -

1 person or 1 couple no kids
Life is on phone and computer (no radios, tvs or bookshelves)
Eating out or just nuking noodles and soups.

Social/Gaming area, sleeping chamber, galley and washroom -

Come to think of it that was my first walkup apartment in Calgary in 1980 - about 400 square feet for 400 dollars.

It makes sense . . . until it doesn't. During COVID lockdowns, couples living in tiny condos determined that they needed more space ('I don't like you that much'), got a COVID dog and/or had a kid. Many went looking for larger condos but multiple bedroom condos are really scarce in Toronto, so many entered the detached home wars.

 

[mariomike]

17 April, 2024

Start Saving: $2M Homes Will Soon Be Toronto’s New Normal​

Start Saving: $2M Homes Will Soon Be Toronto’s New Normal | Zoocasa Blog

How long will it be until we see $2 million dollar homes in Toronto become the average price in the city? It might be sooner than you think.

www.zoocasa.com

According to the Toronto Regional Real Estate Board’s March 2024 report, the benchmark price of a single-family detached home in Toronto is now $1,708,800.

What $2M Can Buy in Toronto Right Now​

On the other hand, if you’re shopping for a single-family detached home among Toronto’s most expensive neighbourhoods, a $2 million home would already be considered a steal, saving you $100,000 below the average. When it comes to the two most affluent neighbourhoods, in the city, Rosedale and Moore Park and York Mills, Bridle Path, and Hoggs Hollow, have witnessed prices skyrocketing well beyond $3.6 million, with some even surpassing $4 million since 2019.

Toronto Neighbourhoods Over $2M​

Neighbourhoods where the average home price peaked past $2M since 2022

High Park-Swansea, Roncesvalles, and Parkdale

Islington, City Centre West, Eringate, Centennial, and West Deane

Yorkville, Annex, and Summerhill

Forest Hill South and Oakwood Village

Bedford Park, Nortown, Lawrence Park, and Forest Hill North

Willowdale West, Lansing, and Westgate

Regent Park, St. James Town, and Corktown

Rosedale and Moore Park

Mount Pleasant

Leaside, Thorncliffe Park, and Flemingdon Park

York Mills, Bridle Path, and Hoggs Hollow

Parkwood, Don Mills, and Victoria Village

Newtonbrooke East and Willowdale East

Hillcrest Village and Bayview Village

The Beaches and Upper Beaches

Glad to see Toronto's old neighborhoods are becoming museums for elderly millionaires.

 

[Kirkhill]

It makes sense . . . until it doesn't. During COVID lockdowns, couples living in tiny condos determined that they needed more space ('I don't like you that much'), got a COVID dog and/or had a kid. Many went looking for larger condos but multiple bedroom condos are really scarce in Toronto, so many entered the detached home wars.

That's true. Very true.

And I moved out of my 400 sq ft apartment and have hop-scotched my way up to a single family dwelling with a yard that backs onto greenspace.
A time and a place for everything and for every taste.

One of the reasons I am not thrilled with these blanket re-zoning proposals being floated currently. Calgary wants to make Four-Plexes the norm in R1 areas.

Some of us don't like high density living. So, there's that.

 

[lenaitch]

One of the reasons I am not thrilled with these blanket re-zoning proposals being floated currently. Calgary wants to make Four-Plexes the norm in R1 areas.

Some of us don't like high density living. So, there's that.

I hear you. I live in the weeds for a reason. Interesting about the fourplexes. I don't follow the issue that closely but apparently the feds favour them for density which has a tie to federal funding. In Ontario, the premier hates them for some reason.

I'm not sure I would call a fourplex "high density".

 

[Kirkhill]

I hear you. I live in the weeds for a reason. Interesting about the fourplexes. I don't follow the issue that closely but apparently the feds favour them for density which has a tie to federal funding. In Ontario, the premier hates them for some reason.

I'm not sure I would call a fourplex "high density".

Fair on the fourplexes but if you are living in a "detached" neighbourhood the character changes if people start knocking down single family dwellings and putting up fourplexes instead.

 

[lenaitch]

Fair on the fourplexes but if you are living in a "detached" neighbourhood the character changes if people start knocking down single family dwellings and putting up fourplexes instead.

Fair enough but I think there are good and not-so-good ways to do it so the neighbourhood dynamic isn't disrupted. A fourplex with each unit of a decent size on a single lot might be a bit much but using two lots (or go deep if it is a deep lot) immediately doubles the density. 'Never changing' is a fool's errand. Toronto used to be full of actual corner stores in residential areas, probably with an apartment above. You could actually walk to get your milk, paper, cleaning, etc. Noisy voices drove that type of zoning away; too much noise, traffic, etc. Heck, it's just about impossible to get retail on the ground floor of a highrise anymore. Those are changes they should go back to.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Fair on the fourplexes but if you are living in a "detached" neighbourhood the character changes if people start knocking down single family dwellings and putting up fourplexes instead.

Doesn't have to. There's no reason a "fourplex" can't honour both the architectural character and regulatory minutia of most neighbourhoods and zonings- except for the the single line of text that arbitrarily excludes them. I agree that putting up a lot line to lot line 4 story appt building on a narrow cul de sac surrounded by bungalows isn't the right thing. But if someone can take a mid century oversized lot, follow all setbacks, max lot coverages, max heights, etc. and build a single structure with 4 residential units that meet the minimums (square footage, allocated parking)of the bylaw? Very different story.

I spoke with a developer recently and he said that the market demands from Millennials and GenZs are actually towards smaller units, and an open concept that blends social/gaming areas and have relatively smaller bedrooms, which to younger people are more like a sleeping chamber than bedrooms of the past.

I don't doubt that some do. Many even most of the recent grad sink/dink crowd. But as @lenaitch said- that's what they want- until they don't. And apparently- not enough people want them A record high number of new condos are going unsold in the GTA. Shoeboxes sitting unsold, shortage of family size units driving prices up. Seems like an inefficient market.

Some of the available building stock going into them makes sense, but the majority of new high density being too small to raise a family and the majority of new SDH being inherently to big to be affordability is not a recipe to build our way out of this.

 

[Good2Golf]

I don't doubt that some do. Many even most of the recent grad sink/dink crowd. But as @lenaitch said- that's what they want- until they don't. And apparently- not enough people want them A record high number of new condos are going unsold in the GTA. Shoeboxes sitting unsold, shortage of family size units driving prices up. Seems like an inefficient market.

Some of the available building stock going into them makes sense, but the majority of new high density being too small to raise a family and the majority of new SDH being inherently to big to be affordability is not a recipe to build our way out of this.

The article you quote doesn’t blame unsold units on their size…it’s pretty clear about why…

High interest rates and growing concern about developer cancellations have made buyers understandably skittish, Hildebrand said.

 

[Kirkhill]

Doesn't have to. There's no reason a "fourplex" can't honour both the architectural character and regulatory minutia of most neighbourhoods and zonings- except for the the single line of text that arbitrarily excludes them. I agree that putting up a lot line to lot line 4 story appt building on a narrow cul de sac surrounded by bungalows isn't the right thing. But if someone can take a mid century oversized lot, follow all setbacks, max lot coverages, max heights, etc. and build a single structure with 4 residential units that meet the minimums (square footage, allocated parking)of the bylaw? Very different story.

I don't doubt that some do. Many even most of the recent grad sink/dink crowd. But as @lenaitch said- that's what they want- until they don't. And apparently- not enough people want them A record high number of new condos are going unsold in the GTA. Shoeboxes sitting unsold, shortage of family size units driving prices up. Seems like an inefficient market.

Some of the available building stock going into them makes sense, but the majority of new high density being too small to raise a family and the majority of new SDH being inherently to big to be affordability is not a recipe to build our way out of this.

What is an oversized lot?

 

[IKnowNothing]

The article you quote doesn’t blame unsold units on their size…it’s pretty clear about why…

High interest rates = higher cost. Not enough people willing to buy at given price = insufficient demand/oversupply. There is not a limitless supply of people willing to pay 700k+ for a shoebox.

Another one about the state of Toronto condos/ rentals

Weak condo market in downtown Toronto leads to dip in rental rates, increased vacancy

With thousands of condos listed for rent and more units expected to come online, some landlords say they’re having trouble finding tenants

www.theglobeandmail.com

The prevailing attitude towards these microcondo's is negativity. The market state supports lack of demand. Even during COVID when rates were through the floor they weren't the hot seller, getting left behind as the market shifted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201207145355/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-developers-building-more-small-condos-even-as-people-clamour-for-more/

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

The issue with the "right of 4 plexes" is that it gets pushed and pushed farther to the extreme.
Here is a picture of a nice house that was just down the street from me. A larger lot, but nothing outrageous, and now its 9 units, (2 apartments in each house and a "little" house behind each house), so even with just 2 people in each unit the neighbors have 18 people living right on the property lines where one house sat.....and parking?....well it'll work itself out.

This would have been 12 units under current proposals.....and still no parking.

 

[IKnowNothing]

What is an oversized lot?

A colloquialism. Replace with large, add in a "relatively" if you want- the point remains the same. Lots capable of supporting fourplexes without any relaxation of the functional rules- or even the application of stricter ones.

Example- compare these zoning stipulations. One is for an SDH only low density zone, 2 is the SDH section from a medium density zone, 3 is the Fourplex section from a the same medium density zone





5000 square feet is about a 10th of an acre. 7000 is .16. Take that to a quarter, a half. Plenty of room to follow the 4plex regulations.

 

[IKnowNothing]

The issue with the "right of 4 plexes" is that it gets pushed and pushed farther to the extreme.
Here is a picture of a nice house that was just down the street from me. A larger lot, but nothing outrageous, and now its 9 units, (2 apartments in each house and a "little" house behind each house), so even with just 2 people in each unit the neighbors have 18 people living right on the property lines where one house sat.....and parking?....well it'll work itself out.

This would have been 12 units under current proposals.....and still no parking.

I'd argue that this is actually an argument for 4 plex as a "right"

Firstly "right" -unless councils/provinces get really stupid- doesn't/shouldn't mean universal free for all. It just means the specific restriction on doing it because of what is is will be removed- there would/should still be regulations and minimums that have to be adhered to.

So in the pictured situation- with "right of x plex" the owner could get simple approval to build a properly designed building for the lot rather than getting a severance and building 2x homes that take advantage of the right to basement apartment + garden suite.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

3 homes and 3 "garden suites"....and variances galore.
Why would he do a 4 plex when he has 9 now?

Oh yes, despite promises they would be on the market for potential buyers, the developer just started another company a few weeks ago catering to foreign student renters.

How did this help with high prices in my area?? How did clearcutting a well tree'd lot help the environment? How did paving over land help a city that gets all of its water from the ground carry on?
Questions that never seem to matter because $$$$.

 

[IKnowNothing]

3 homes and 3 "garden suites"....and variances galore.
Why would he do a 4 plex when he has 9 now?

If he couldn't get the severances and variances because municipal policy was to point at the 3,4,5, x plex building the lot could support under an existing bylaw rather than rather than implicitly encouraging that things be chopped up to satisfy the "spirit" of maintaining an SDH only zoning.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Nice try but incorrect...

 

[YZT580]

Doesn't have to. There's no reason a "fourplex" can't honour both the architectural character and regulatory minutia of most neighbourhoods and zonings- except for the the single line of text that arbitrarily excludes them. I agree that putting up a lot line to lot line 4 story appt building on a narrow cul de sac surrounded by bungalows isn't the right thing. But if someone can take a mid century oversized lot, follow all setbacks, max lot coverages, max heights, etc. and build a single structure with 4 residential units that meet the minimums (square footage, allocated parking)of the bylaw? Very different story.

At least in my town, every application for doubling up on lots is accompanied by an application for a change to set-backs, parking, or ground coverage.