AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[dapaterson]

It would be nice if the bureaucrats involved would itemize the costs of the project.
How much is for infrastructure? How much is wages to build the infrastructure.

All we hear is 4 Billion dollars for 2 ships and people lose their minds.

I am reasonably certain that those responsible for the many interrelated activities that make up that ~4B can tell you where the money is planned to be spent, but by necessity some things get simplified as they roll up (otherwise the level of detail risks obscuring things).

 

[FSTO]

Aren't we factoring in the cost of the JSS rebuilding new jetties and maintenance?

Which is odd because isn't the J Jetty project in Halifax under the AOPS, and the A and B Jetty projects under their own project?

Adding the cost to make it seem worse?

 

[Uzlu]

Meanwhile Royal Navy is paying about $200 million each for four built quickly in South Korea by Daewoo Tides Class replenishment ships of 37,000t--may be less capable than JSS in some aspects but given that our cost is now $1.7 billion per ship (even if costings quite dissimilar) our paying almost nine times as much for each is insane

Not $1.7 billion--$1.02 billion.  The ships are 60% of the $3.4 billion.  Five Tide-class ships will eventually be built.  The more ships built, the lower the cost per ship.  The further off into the future a ship is to be built, the higher the cost—increases are greater than the rate of inflation.
 
One Tide-class ship is already in service.  Construction has already started on the other four.  Construction, however, is yet to start on the Protecteur-class ships.  Not an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I am reasonably certain that those responsible for the many interrelated activities that make up that ~4B can tell you where the money is planned to be spent, but by necessity some things get simplified as they roll up (otherwise the level of detail risks obscuring things).

Ship cost total = XXXX
Construction cost =XXXX
Systems costs = XXXXXX
Software & Licenses =XXXXX
Costs for support infrastructure that is unique for that design = XXXX

That is the level of detail most interested people are looking for. Regardless if the ships are built at Davie, Seaspan, South Korea or Germany, they will still need jetties to tie up to and maintenance contracts. Including those costs is just plain stupid and is one of the reasons why I have very low respect for TB and their minions. With the information above we can then see if we are getting value for money. If one design requires 200 million in infrastructure costs over the others, then that needs to be explained why.

 

[dapaterson]

There's actually a document within DND called the "Project Approval Directive" or PAD which details how things are approved and what costs are to be included (conversion training for operators and maintainers, new training materials required, personnel to deliver the project, initial spares, custom tooling etc etc).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The question is, how our those costs relevant to the ship purchase/build? If the capacity is required, then the only thing to be measured is the difference in those costs, if they are greater than a certain percentage. We ran 2 AOR's for years, those costs should be the baseline and then savings/extra costs can be highlighted.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Uzlu:

...
Not $1.7 billion--$1.02 billion. The ships are 60% of the $3.4 billion. Five Tide-class ships will eventually be built...One Tide-class ship is already in service.  Construction has already started on the other four...

Actually four ordered, looks like two already in service:

Third new Tide class tanker arrives in UK
March 28, 2018

The third of four new support tankers to be delivered to the UK has arrived in Cornwall for customisation and trials before entering service with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and being deployed on operations with the Royal Navy.

The arrival of RFA Tidesurge comes just weeks after her sister ship, RFA Tidespring, met up at sea with aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for the first time.

The 39,000-tonne tankers can carry up to 19,000 cubic metres of fuel and 1,400 cubic metres of fresh water in support of Royal Navy operations all over the world.

The detailed customisation work to prepare RFA Tidesurge and her sister ships for operations is being undertaken at the A&P shipyard in Falmouth, sustaining around 300 jobs...

While in Falmouth RFA Tidesurge will be fitted with UK specific armour, self-defence weaponry and communications systems, with the total UK work content, including A&P, in the Tide Class programme worth around £150 million and sustaining further jobs at 27 UK-based companies.

The customisation work is expected to take around four months after which RFA Tidesurge will begin final sea trials before entering service in Autumn this year.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/third-new-tide-class-tanker-arrives-in-uk/

Good question whether those "customisation" costs are included in the $200 million each figure. If not at roughly $65 million per ship would raise cost to $265 million.  Still 1/4 of $1.02 billion per JSS you note.

More:

UK’s fourth Tide-class tanker RFA Tideforce named in South Korea

RFA Tideforce, the final of four Tide-class tankers being built for the UK in South Korea, was named on January 24 in a ceremony at the Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering shipyard in South Korea.

The ceremony was attended by Royal Marine General Gordon Messenger, British ambassador to Republic of Korea Charles Hay and a number of shipyard and government officials.

The tanker is now set to undergo finishing touches before being officially delivered to Royal Navy in the first half of 2018, according to the shipbuilder.

Once it reaches UK waters after a two-month voyage, the ship will undergo further outfitting, to receive armor, self-defense weaponry and communications systems, and sea trials before entering service.

Future RFA Tideforce, along with sister ships RFA Tidespring, RFA Tiderace and RFA Tidesurge are designed to carry up to 19,000 cubic meters of fuel and 1,400 cubic meters of fresh water in support of Royal Navy operations the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers.

The Tide Class has a flight deck able to accommodate the large Chinook helicopter and offer significant improvements over previous RFA tankers such as double hulls and greater environmental protection measures.
https://navaltoday.com/2018/01/24/uks-fourth-tide-class-tanker-rfa-tideforce-named-in-south-korea/

Capabilities vs JSS?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Uzlu]

Actually four ordered

And one for Norway.

 

[Dale Denton]

Another missed opportunity:

https://navaltoday.com/2018/06/05/royal-navy-offering-wave-class-tanker-to-brazil-media/

I admit I know nothing on AORs and such, but consider this:

We buy 1 or 2 Wave-Class tankers, they're already ready to go. Shouldn't take long to throw some electronic/RCN interoperability systems on them that they already threw on the Asterix at Davie, + they have the recent xp. Use them as Interim AOR(s) until JSS comes online. Then throw some more money at them again to turn them into Davies "Peace Support Ships" for whenever the next (inevitable) gap in shipbuilding projects comes up. Then keep it for a new Peace Support/DART capability/role OR sell it to almost anyone and not worry about it being used to hurt civilians as its a support ship.

 

[Stoker]

Another missed opportunity:

https://navaltoday.com/2018/06/05/royal-navy-offering-wave-class-tanker-to-brazil-media/

I admit I know nothing on AORs and such, but consider this:

We buy 1 or 2 Wave-Class tankers, they're already ready to go. Shouldn't take long to throw some electronic/RCN interoperability systems on them that they already threw on the Asterix at Davie, + they have the recent xp. Use them as Interim AOR(s) until JSS comes online. Then throw some more money at them again to turn them into Davies "Peace Support Ships" for whenever the next (inevitable) gap in shipbuilding projects comes up. Then keep it for a new Peace Support/DART capability/role OR sell it to almost anyone and not worry about it being used to hurt civilians as its a support ship.

You want us to buy more used garbage from the Brits?, no thank you!

 

[jollyjacktar]

You want us to buy more used garbage from the Brits?, no thank you!

I toured RFA Wave Ruler in 2011.  She was not necessarily a bad boat, but the crewmember said there were issues right out of BAE 's yard when she was new.  She did look better than what we had at the time of my visit.  As they're pushing 20 years old (ish) now, l agree there wouldn't be much value for us.

 

[STONEY]

If you'd have read the whole article the defence department denied this as only a rumour and there was no intention to sell any wave class tankers. Wave Ruler is really only 15 years old and would have been a lot newer than the RCN'S average.  She is more of a tanker than a true AOR . 

 

[Dale Denton]

If you'd have read the whole article the defence department denied this as only a rumour and there was no intention to sell any wave class tankers. Wave Ruler is really only 15 years old and would have been a lot newer than the RCN'S average.  She is more of a tanker than a true AOR . 

You assume too much from my post. "Missed opportunity" in that there's no intention to buy her from the RN, not that she was sold already.

My thought is that she'd be worth it as 15 is a lot newer than nothing and a leased civilian-ish ship. Might as well keep her for the interim, even if she's more of a tanker, better than nothing.

oh well.

 

[Stoker]

You assume too much from my post. "Missed opportunity" in that there's no intention to buy her from the RN, not that she was sold already.

My thought is that she'd be worth it as 15 is a lot newer than nothing and a leased civilian-ish ship. Might as well keep her for the interim, even if she's more of a tanker, better than nothing.

oh well.

The last thing we need is another civilian-ish ship. One's enough.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I've got a few questions, hopefully some of you can provide some educated guesses based on your previous experience and knowledge. I do realise that some of this will be WAG's.

1) Does anyone know if Seaspan has the capacity (both in space and manpower) to be working on both JSS concurrently or will they have to substantially finish one ship before they can start significant work on the other? 

2) If they are talking about 2022/23 for the first ship to be 'in the water', how many months/years would it before the second JSS would be 'in the water?

3) Using the term, 'in the water', is it safe to say that it would be another 12 months, roughly, before the RCN would officially accept the ship?  So, the first JSS accepted by the RCN in 2024 and the second in ???

4) What is going to be built at Seaspan before the JSS start?  If the 2 remaining Fisheries ships will be turned over in the next 18 months, will they start on the JSS straight away or will the other research ship be started?  If the JSS will start first, then the last research ship start after?

5) Using the timelines above of 2022/23 for the first JSS to be in the water, when could the new Diefenbaker ice breaker be in water, 2029/30? That would make the LSL ice breaker over 70yrs old....

Thanks!

 

[jollyjacktar]

My son tells me they're powering up the low voltage systems on HdW tonight for the very first time.  Harry will hopefully come to life without much drama.

 

[Underway]

My son tells me they're powering up the low voltage systems on HdW tonight for the very first time.  Harry will hopefully come to life without much drama.

I can see the ship from my apt balcony.  Hopefully I don't hear any bong bongs when they do! 

Question for you jollyjacktar (or anyone else who knows). HdW is a high voltage (for the RCN) propulsion system IIRC.  Low voltage would be everything but the engines?

 

[Stoker]

I can see the ship from my apt balcony.  Hopefully I don't hear any bong bongs when they do! 

Question for you jollyjacktar (or anyone else who knows). HdW is a high voltage (for the RCN) propulsion system IIRC.  Low voltage would be everything but the engines?

Actually its now being called medium voltage for the propulsion apparently.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The last thing we need is another civilian-ish ship. One's enough.

Chief, respectfully, we disagree right there. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Actually its now being called medium voltage for the propulsion apparently.

Based on industry standards it is; if you are used to 100k+ (or 1M+) volts, 4400 is a walk in the park.  Folks used to working on the high power side are interesting to talk to that way; there seems to be a certain elements of fatalism when you know a mistake will kill you, with the appropriate amount of dark humour.