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No Michael...the CF no longer has any such animal as Jump Boots. The SSF Boot disappeared even before the Garrison Boot made its' appearance (and disappearance).
Gw
Gw
Why don‘t Infantry wear the RCIC badge?
- Thread starter Michael Dorosh
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I'm against any form of special representation of trade on the uniform aside from a simple trade badge on the sleeve of the DEU. It gets us away from the "Soldier First" mentality and promotes a "Grunt/Wog" outlook.
Picture this Michael - the Infantry adopts a fancy hat, a neat looking badge, and special boots. You are forced to adopt the logistics badge, lose the Cal High moniker (that's for Infantry guys), and ditch the kilt. Same thing, it's a "turf" outlook. As I've stressed on multiple occasions, our Army should move toward complete Regimental identification, regardless of trade.
Picture this Michael - the Infantry adopts a fancy hat, a neat looking badge, and special boots. You are forced to adopt the logistics badge, lose the Cal High moniker (that's for Infantry guys), and ditch the kilt. Same thing, it's a "turf" outlook. As I've stressed on multiple occasions, our Army should move toward complete Regimental identification, regardless of trade.
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We already have a grunt/wog mentality in the forces. It is constantly stressed by both groups of individuals, I have taught on SQ courses where the course officer has seen fit to emphasize the candidates were not infantry, thus implying that we should treat them easier!
Until we get through with that attitude(SQ is supposed to be a CF common crse) there will never be a "soldier first" attitude. To think otherwise is a pipe dream in todays Forces.
Before anyone gets his knickers in a knot I personally have no problems with 99% of trades personel, they serve a purpose and are welcome in any unit I have served with. By the way, 2 groups of people you never pissoff in battalion? Cooks and supply techs, for obvious reasons! ;D
;D
Until we get through with that attitude(SQ is supposed to be a CF common crse) there will never be a "soldier first" attitude. To think otherwise is a pipe dream in todays Forces.
Before anyone gets his knickers in a knot I personally have no problems with 99% of trades personel, they serve a purpose and are welcome in any unit I have served with. By the way, 2 groups of people you never pissoff in battalion? Cooks and supply techs, for obvious reasons! ;D
;D I think If one were to examine the actual cost of maintaining the ecoutrements of so many different regiments(especially the Highland ones, those kilts are $400 plus dollars each) it becomes apparant that it cannot continue. Why not turn all the existing reserve infantry units into sub units of one of the three regular regiments? Instead of the S H of C, why not 10 and 11 platoons, D Coy, 3PPCLI? Lets face it, most of these reserve "battalions" are at best a few platoons, so lets consolidate them, and take the money saved and plough it back into training.
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I find that people who make these comments, usually have not experienced the Unit pride and heritage of these units. By making them all a single generic unit, the "hometown/community" feeling that many of these units perpetuate will be lost. With that loss, recruitment drops off and our problems are worse, not better.
GW
GW
Michael Dorosh
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kapyong said:
You obviously don't realize that Regimental (ie non-public) funds often pay for many of these accoutrements....so the training benefit would be nil. Honourary Colonels, wealthy benefactors, kit shop sales, band functions, etc. help fund these endeavours. You can't raise money for training that way.
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Eowyn
It is true that Highland units recieve a grant from the Govt towards Highland kit...........but you should be aware of 2 issues:
1) There is an allotment given to EACH unit (of any designation) for ceremonial gear which is equivalent to the "Kilt Money"......I believe this was instituted in the sake of fairness......and;
2) the allowance is infintesimal....Speaking as one who was involved in the kitting out of my regiment for our presentation of Colours by Her Majesty in 2002.....the great bulk of the cost of outfitting a Highland unit is NOT born by the Crown....but by the Regimental Family and those in the community who support the Canadian Highland Regiments.....
Lets face it....as the "kilt money" value was fixed in the dim past, it barely covers the buckles on a 800$ +/- Military weight Kilt.
It is true that Highland units recieve a grant from the Govt towards Highland kit...........but you should be aware of 2 issues:
1) There is an allotment given to EACH unit (of any designation) for ceremonial gear which is equivalent to the "Kilt Money"......I believe this was instituted in the sake of fairness......and;
2) the allowance is infintesimal....Speaking as one who was involved in the kitting out of my regiment for our presentation of Colours by Her Majesty in 2002.....the great bulk of the cost of outfitting a Highland unit is NOT born by the Crown....but by the Regimental Family and those in the community who support the Canadian Highland Regiments.....
Lets face it....as the "kilt money" value was fixed in the dim past, it barely covers the buckles on a 800$ +/- Military weight Kilt.
Michael Dorosh
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Yup - without going too deeply into it, there was a discussion recently here about having a couple of ceremonial jackets made up for a specific purpose, and some dismay at how much of the money budgeted for uniforms for the entire unit it would take up.
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Steel Badger
Having been a Finance Officer in a Highland unit for many years, I am aware of the small amount. But that is just for "Kilt Maintenance". There is a larger amount for an authorized increase in strength. Of course, even that doesn't cover the entire cost.
Micheal
I doubt that the making of that ceremonial jacket would be covered by the Kilt grant. If it was for the band, they have a separate entitlement, but it is smaller than the Kilt grant. If it was for the Colour party, it isn't even covered.
My concern was with your comment that the Regimental family pays for most of the Highland kit. I can assure you that when I was Fin O, the Regimental family didn't pay for anything of that kilt that was covered by the grant.
Having been a Finance Officer in a Highland unit for many years, I am aware of the small amount. But that is just for "Kilt Maintenance". There is a larger amount for an authorized increase in strength. Of course, even that doesn't cover the entire cost.
Micheal
I doubt that the making of that ceremonial jacket would be covered by the Kilt grant. If it was for the band, they have a separate entitlement, but it is smaller than the Kilt grant. If it was for the Colour party, it isn't even covered.
My concern was with your comment that the Regimental family pays for most of the Highland kit. I can assure you that when I was Fin O, the Regimental family didn't pay for anything of that kilt that was covered by the grant.
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Ian said:
Reg Force Officers get badged after they have completed Ph IV. For Reg Force Offices there still is a badging ceremony.
FormerHorseGuard
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here is my 25 cents of of thought on this matter.
I started in a kilted unit and I was QL3 Inf and I worn the kilt and cut away and all the trimming which with the uniform, i then remusteded to a log trade, fin clerk and I had to turn in my highland kit and get a normal uniform and green beret. I did not like changing the uniform and i made the adjustment to pants. Public parades like on NOV 11 was always a strange site, depending who was around and was able to do firing parties for various local parades, you would have kilted soldiers and soldiers dressed like me on the same firing party, the kilted guys always made the newspaper.
at the INF unit I was able to wear my trade cap badge, trade collar dogs, and regimental buttons, log shoulder titles on my deu but on the combat uniform i had to wear the unit titles and my green beret. Before the change over to AD RCA I got the okay from the CO to where the unit headdress with my combats only, and the glen with my work dress. Not allowed to wear the kilt.
I left the unit after it was changed to RCA AD and I joined an armoured unit in Toronto where I was already on B A callout with the HQ, I asked the armoured SGT Major at the HQ what i should wear since I joined an Armoured unit. He called the RCD kit shop, ordered me one of those fancy Belgian berets, and then took the time to form my head to fit it. Later the SGT MAJOR also joined the res unit on his retirement from the Regs and he was my SQN SGT MAJOR, he ordered a new dress policy with support of the CO. All non armoured trades were to wear the black beret, trade cap badge, and unit slip ons. anything from inside the breast pockets was out own space to wear as we saw fit, trade buttons and collar dogs were alllowed or regimental, choice of each soldier, Shoulder titles had to be Unit and only Unit.
For dress uniform all trades had to wear the dress Blues of the unit , included the band, the armoured Sqn and the support SQN, I did not mind wearing the blues it sure was dressy.
Hardest thing for me to give up was the kilt, i use to say you could take the man out of the kilt, but you could take the kilt out of the man. if i was to go back i would want to wear my black beret and never look at a green one. once you wear black you never go back
I started in a kilted unit and I was QL3 Inf and I worn the kilt and cut away and all the trimming which with the uniform, i then remusteded to a log trade, fin clerk and I had to turn in my highland kit and get a normal uniform and green beret. I did not like changing the uniform and i made the adjustment to pants. Public parades like on NOV 11 was always a strange site, depending who was around and was able to do firing parties for various local parades, you would have kilted soldiers and soldiers dressed like me on the same firing party, the kilted guys always made the newspaper.
at the INF unit I was able to wear my trade cap badge, trade collar dogs, and regimental buttons, log shoulder titles on my deu but on the combat uniform i had to wear the unit titles and my green beret. Before the change over to AD RCA I got the okay from the CO to where the unit headdress with my combats only, and the glen with my work dress. Not allowed to wear the kilt.
I left the unit after it was changed to RCA AD and I joined an armoured unit in Toronto where I was already on B A callout with the HQ, I asked the armoured SGT Major at the HQ what i should wear since I joined an Armoured unit. He called the RCD kit shop, ordered me one of those fancy Belgian berets, and then took the time to form my head to fit it. Later the SGT MAJOR also joined the res unit on his retirement from the Regs and he was my SQN SGT MAJOR, he ordered a new dress policy with support of the CO. All non armoured trades were to wear the black beret, trade cap badge, and unit slip ons. anything from inside the breast pockets was out own space to wear as we saw fit, trade buttons and collar dogs were alllowed or regimental, choice of each soldier, Shoulder titles had to be Unit and only Unit.
For dress uniform all trades had to wear the dress Blues of the unit , included the band, the armoured Sqn and the support SQN, I did not mind wearing the blues it sure was dressy.
Hardest thing for me to give up was the kilt, i use to say you could take the man out of the kilt, but you could take the kilt out of the man. if i was to go back i would want to wear my black beret and never look at a green one. once you wear black you never go back
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There is a seemingly persistent assumption within this infantry-centric thread which presumes that the non-infantry trades serving within infantry battalions wish to don the accoutrements of their hosts after some (as yet defined) "rite of passage" or "time in service". One could presume that the same argument would hold true for those trades-persons serving within any other combat arms unit.
The odd thing is, that in my current role as the Officer Commanding Administration Company of 3 PPCLI, I see no such desire. Indeed, the "Maintainers" within Maint Pl have always much prefered to wear their dark-blue PT gear with the the EME crest. They very much embrace their EME role within an infantry battalion, and would undoubtedly resent suddenly being "offered"/told to sport PPCLI accoutrements. The PPCLI identity is neither reflective of who they are, nor what they uniquely do in support of the unit. Having said that, ask any of those same Maintainers if they are happy to serve within 3 PPCLI? I can assure you of the answer with a very high degree of confidence. They like being where they are. They genuinely appreciate being made to feel an integral part of the 3 PPCLI team, and their efforts are genuinely appreciated. But they are Maintainers, first and foremost. There is no mistaking the pride that they associate with their role on a daily basis. Particularly during Thu morning floor-hockey....
And the same applies to the other trades within my current unit - none of which have the same numbers or structural integrity of the Maintenance Platoon. Still, the Logistics (QM) platoon of mixed Supply Techs, RMS Clerks, Riggers, etc, functions like a well-oiled machine. Yes, they wear PPCLI PT gear in lieu of a branch-specific ensemble like the Maint Pl, but they remain very much distinctive (and proud of it) in their working uniform insignia. And proper thing to! Even though their ranks are heavily infiltrated by infantry soldiers performing logisitics functions, they remain specialists - with a very specific and critical role to perform in supporting the majority infantry component of the unit. The same can be said of the "Jimmies" within Signals Platoon, of which approximately 50% are infantry. They all seem to get along just fine despite the plethora of cap-badges and collar-dogs within the organization.
Me thinks that some here place far, far too much importance upon "buttons and bows" issues. It is the integrated and cohesive team that counts. Yes, gestures of acceptance and integration are important - assuming that they are not automatic and therefore pointless. But at the end of the day? Results count. In fact, results are ALL that count. Arbitrarily handing out coins and/or cap-badges does not produce results. Building a team, wherein each and every contributing member is recognized for their distinct and essential contribution to the whole, is what produces the required results.
Buttons and bows are for parade-square clowns. Real soldiers don't need no stinking badges to belong to a functional team.
You either get it, or you don't.
The odd thing is, that in my current role as the Officer Commanding Administration Company of 3 PPCLI, I see no such desire. Indeed, the "Maintainers" within Maint Pl have always much prefered to wear their dark-blue PT gear with the the EME crest. They very much embrace their EME role within an infantry battalion, and would undoubtedly resent suddenly being "offered"/told to sport PPCLI accoutrements. The PPCLI identity is neither reflective of who they are, nor what they uniquely do in support of the unit. Having said that, ask any of those same Maintainers if they are happy to serve within 3 PPCLI? I can assure you of the answer with a very high degree of confidence. They like being where they are. They genuinely appreciate being made to feel an integral part of the 3 PPCLI team, and their efforts are genuinely appreciated. But they are Maintainers, first and foremost. There is no mistaking the pride that they associate with their role on a daily basis. Particularly during Thu morning floor-hockey....
And the same applies to the other trades within my current unit - none of which have the same numbers or structural integrity of the Maintenance Platoon. Still, the Logistics (QM) platoon of mixed Supply Techs, RMS Clerks, Riggers, etc, functions like a well-oiled machine. Yes, they wear PPCLI PT gear in lieu of a branch-specific ensemble like the Maint Pl, but they remain very much distinctive (and proud of it) in their working uniform insignia. And proper thing to! Even though their ranks are heavily infiltrated by infantry soldiers performing logisitics functions, they remain specialists - with a very specific and critical role to perform in supporting the majority infantry component of the unit. The same can be said of the "Jimmies" within Signals Platoon, of which approximately 50% are infantry. They all seem to get along just fine despite the plethora of cap-badges and collar-dogs within the organization.
Me thinks that some here place far, far too much importance upon "buttons and bows" issues. It is the integrated and cohesive team that counts. Yes, gestures of acceptance and integration are important - assuming that they are not automatic and therefore pointless. But at the end of the day? Results count. In fact, results are ALL that count. Arbitrarily handing out coins and/or cap-badges does not produce results. Building a team, wherein each and every contributing member is recognized for their distinct and essential contribution to the whole, is what produces the required results.
Buttons and bows are for parade-square clowns. Real soldiers don't need no stinking badges to belong to a functional team.
You either get it, or you don't.
R
R031button
Guest
Michael Dorosh said:
That being said, the money being saved in admin costs, and removing the huge top heavy structure of the reserves would be benificial none the less.
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CFL said:I wear the Presidential Citation.
Not to stear the topic, but I am interested. What unit do you belong to and how did they earn the Presidential Citation.
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I find myself in this EXACT predicament. I grad my PH 3 ( a while ago and have gone onto my Inf Cie Comd Course) and since then have never belong to a Regiment, as I am a full time CL BA and belong to an established ARE posn on base. I have never served with a reserve unit since being qual 23A, nor will I until they offer me a full time contract as I believe that the reserves role is to augment the Reg F and not to stay simply on stand by during a whole career (activation is nec to be a well rounded soldier). Years ago, I started off with a reserve unit, and then served with a reg F unit (inf). Thurs my dilemma - I have contemplated wearing the Inf cap badge, however have now simply kept wearing a long ago local unit, without any real affiliation (oups did I say that out loud).
Can anyone figure out my dilemma.
:dontpanic:
Can anyone figure out my dilemma.
:dontpanic:
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ducimuscapt said:
Did you wear the cap badge of the reserve regiment that sent you on your Ph III or did you wear the Infantry Corps Badge while on course?
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So...let me get this right: you refuse to affilate yourself to a Res unit because they won't offer you a full time job? Isn't that being a bit (well, actually...a lot...) mercenary? You are right to say that the role of the Res is to augment the RegF, and lots of them do that and have been doing it on various ops for years. Typically, they take time off their school or civilian careers to do so. They don't sit around demanding that the Reserve, (which is designed --like all volunteer Army Reserves in the English speaking world-- to be a part-time force with a very small full time cadre), offer them full time employment. If I was the CO of a Res unit, I might not really want you to join my Regiment as one of my officers, if those are your expectations, nor if I was a Res soldier might I want you leading me.
Mark C:
As a former OC Admin Coy myself, I could not agree more. CSS soldiers can feel like part of the team without having to do a chameleon act. Its all about how they are treated and valued, and what you demand of them. I was very proud to have the privelige to lead that crew: a very capable bunch, but very misunderstood and maligned by those "bayonets" who wouldn't take the time to appreciate them. No modern unit today will get very far or last very long without them.
Cheers.
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At the time of my Ph3 - I was employed on a CLBA ( on an established base posn) and I was sent on trg by my reg F unit. At that time, I asked a local unit to affiliate myself to them, wear their hat badge and accoutrement's, however since I was on a 3 yr BA, never had a chance to parade with them.
I do not demand any reserve unit take me, or employ me. On the contrary, I would never want to make the commitment to serve with them if I was not able to do so.
That is my dilemma, during my time on CL BA (since 2000) full time - I have not figured out what I should wear.
I do not return to a civilian job because, I am not a tenager that attends school, I am a full time reservist, because I followed my (now ex husband) from posting to posting, and once posted out of Valc, (I was a civilian cop) out of province, I was no longer employed. SO I did what I could and got a full time reservist contract and have been employed ever since. Thus, it was not a career choice, it was a means of survival in the posting world.
I am fortunite to have the opportunities that I have been offered, however still do not have any ''apartenance'' like a ''chien pas de médaille''. If I was a clerk and not infantry I would wear the corps badge and at least belong to a trade, however I do not belong to anyone.
Lucky gal....
I do not demand any reserve unit take me, or employ me. On the contrary, I would never want to make the commitment to serve with them if I was not able to do so.
That is my dilemma, during my time on CL BA (since 2000) full time - I have not figured out what I should wear.
I do not return to a civilian job because, I am not a tenager that attends school, I am a full time reservist, because I followed my (now ex husband) from posting to posting, and once posted out of Valc, (I was a civilian cop) out of province, I was no longer employed. SO I did what I could and got a full time reservist contract and have been employed ever since. Thus, it was not a career choice, it was a means of survival in the posting world.
I am fortunite to have the opportunities that I have been offered, however still do not have any ''apartenance'' like a ''chien pas de médaille''. If I was a clerk and not infantry I would wear the corps badge and at least belong to a trade, however I do not belong to anyone.
Lucky gal....
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