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ShockAndAwe001388
Guest
Just a quick mostle pointless question: are engineer officers called sappers? or is sapper a name belonging exclusively to NCO‘s?
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In Theory Every Engineer Is a Sapper
But the Term is Only Used For Trained Privates
All The Other Ranks Are as They Should Be
But the Term is Only Used For Trained Privates
All The Other Ranks Are as They Should Be
V
Veterans son
Guest
SprCForr said:It is not theory, and it is not just a rank. Every Engineer is a Sapper.
MGen Fitch is a sapper.
CCWO Lacroix is a sapper.
Spr Williamson is a sapper.
etc
etc
Read it, learn it, live it.
Thanks for the message, SprCForr!
I have wondered whether all Engineers were Sappers.
My father retired as a Corporal but he was still a Sapper; he
was proud to be a Sapper.
P
P Kaye
Guest
Getting back to the orignal topic: the term "sapper".
From dictionary.com:
sapper
n 1: a military engineer who lays or detects and disarms mines 2: a military engineer who does sapping (digging trenches or undermining fortifications)
So that tells me what "sapping" is... does anybody have any more detailed knowledge of the etymology (history) of that term?
From dictionary.com:
sapper
n 1: a military engineer who lays or detects and disarms mines 2: a military engineer who does sapping (digging trenches or undermining fortifications)
So that tells me what "sapping" is... does anybody have any more detailed knowledge of the etymology (history) of that term?
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P Kaye said:
The word Sapper comes from the French or old Norman lingua in regards to attacking a Castle.
We dug a ever progressive deepening trench ( A Sap) at the same time we made sure we had OHP.
( I forget the French Sp.,in time it has been Anglicized from Old English re. Norman through the Brit Army now to us.)
Once reaching the foundations of the wall ,we stuffed it with loads of faggots and set them a light and kept them a light until the mortar,which in those day's was not of the best material and as such it failed,cracked and collapsed the Castle wall and thus our hoards proceeded to assault,in the mean time we Sappers lost out on the Loot and got the left overs as it is to day.
Yup the life of the Muddy Old Engineer.
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Can anyone provide me with a running definition of a Sapper?
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1. A military engineer who specializes in sapping and other field fortification activities.
2. A military engineer who lays, detects, and disarms mines.
In the CF, Sapper is the title for a trained engineer private, the same way they are called "gunner" in the artillery and "trooper" in an armoured unit etc...
2. A military engineer who lays, detects, and disarms mines.
In the CF, Sapper is the title for a trained engineer private, the same way they are called "gunner" in the artillery and "trooper" in an armoured unit etc...
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He is a man of all work of the army and the public, astronomer, geologist, surveyor, draughtsman, artist, architect, traveller, explorer, antiquary, mechanic, diver, soldier, and sailor; Ready to do anything or go anywhere; in short he is a SAPPER
" Just tell your wife you owe your life to the muddy ol' engineer"
" Just tell your wife you owe your life to the muddy ol' engineer"
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Before they were the Royal Engineers, proper, they were Sappers and Miners (and remained so in the Indian Army until quite modern times).
Saps were covered tunnels which led 'miners' to the enemy's castle walls. A mine â “ big cave â “ was dug under the wall and filled with wood and pitch. The whole thing was set alight and the heat caused the wall to collapse â “ remember Henry V and â Å“Once more into the breachâ ? etc â “ that breach was probably created by a mine.
Saps were covered tunnels which led 'miners' to the enemy's castle walls. A mine â “ big cave â “ was dug under the wall and filled with wood and pitch. The whole thing was set alight and the heat caused the wall to collapse â “ remember Henry V and â Å“Once more into the breachâ ? etc â “ that breach was probably created by a mine.
A
aesop081
Guest
Cpl Corruption said:
There used to be a sign on the base in Chilliwack on the way from the h-huts to bldg44 with those very words......we had to stop in front of it every morning when marching to the school.........damned, that was a while ago.
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I recently was involved in a discussion about who is a Sapper. It seems that some of our AF brethren seem to think that the term only applies to the 043s. The firefighters tend to only callthemselves firefighters.
So I would like to generate some discussion on this, if you are wearing the CME hatbadge, are you a Sapper, in general, and if a Private, specifically. Should all Privates in the CME be called Sappers? Should everyone wearing a CME hatbadge be referred to generally as Sappers?
From the "Red Book", Chap 3 page 3-1 Para 3, "The term "sapper" has been associated with engineers for many generations..." . Para 5 continues, In 1813, the Royal Engineers officially adopted the title Royal Sappers and Miners and , in 1856, the rank of the common soldier was changed from private to sapper. The CME has continued to use this designation and, just as the privates in the artillery are referred to as "gunners", field engineers, of the rank of private are referred to as "Sappers". A sapper should always be addressed as Sapper Smith, not Private Smith. .... All ranks in field engineer units traditionally referred to themselves as sappers because other trades were first trained as Field Engineers. Today, it is primarily combat engineers that are referred to as sappers."
A few points from these quotes, firstly, this was obviously written prior to the CTs being placed in the Regts, secondly, not everyone needs to have been an FE anymore.
My point is that in the effort of integrating everyone into the Engineer family, would it be a bad thing to call all of our Privates , regardless of the traded, the honoured title of Sapper?
So I would like to generate some discussion on this, if you are wearing the CME hatbadge, are you a Sapper, in general, and if a Private, specifically. Should all Privates in the CME be called Sappers? Should everyone wearing a CME hatbadge be referred to generally as Sappers?
From the "Red Book", Chap 3 page 3-1 Para 3, "The term "sapper" has been associated with engineers for many generations..." . Para 5 continues, In 1813, the Royal Engineers officially adopted the title Royal Sappers and Miners and , in 1856, the rank of the common soldier was changed from private to sapper. The CME has continued to use this designation and, just as the privates in the artillery are referred to as "gunners", field engineers, of the rank of private are referred to as "Sappers". A sapper should always be addressed as Sapper Smith, not Private Smith. .... All ranks in field engineer units traditionally referred to themselves as sappers because other trades were first trained as Field Engineers. Today, it is primarily combat engineers that are referred to as sappers."
A few points from these quotes, firstly, this was obviously written prior to the CTs being placed in the Regts, secondly, not everyone needs to have been an FE anymore.
My point is that in the effort of integrating everyone into the Engineer family, would it be a bad thing to call all of our Privates , regardless of the traded, the honoured title of Sapper?
McG
Army.ca Legend
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"Sapper" only applies to the Cbt Engrs (previously Fd Engrs and FEE) and thier officers. If we want to adopt the UK practice of trg our tradesmen as sappers first, then we can share the title with them. Otherwise, I don't see it as required.
We don't try applying the "sapper" title to the sigs & maintainers when they are posted into the CERs. Why would we apply it to another group of non combat arms, even if that group is engr?
We don't try applying the "sapper" title to the sigs & maintainers when they are posted into the CERs. Why would we apply it to another group of non combat arms, even if that group is engr?
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Where I'm at, a private (600 series) AF is called private. A "green" 600 series private is called sapper, even though he's not a combat engineer. It irritates the combat engineers. The sappers (043's) are combat arms "front line troops", us , we're support. I think they deserve more their title than me. As most engineers knows "the sapper" designation comes from the role the combat engineers had in the two world wars. The "600's" weren't around at the time....
Our jobs are so different compared to what the 043's are doing ,i think everybody wonders why we wear the same hat badge anyway...
Our jobs are so different compared to what the 043's are doing ,i think everybody wonders why we wear the same hat badge anyway...
