• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Who does what in policing?/Pressures (split fm BC Murder thread)

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
681
Points
910
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Well, the Surrey thing is a red hering, as we know they are in the process of getting their own, hence I kept them off the list:

https://www.surrey.ca/police/default.aspx

;D

As for small town USA, what do you expect when you elect your local Sherriff every four years. ???

Far from a done deal. Meanwhile the thought of our two anti-heroes, suffering in the bush, scavenging garbage, warms my heart, in fact when located, slowly push further and further into the bush. let them enjoy the bugs and bears.
 

Blackadder1916

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
242
Points
830
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Well, here is what the RNC itself says it does: https://www.rnc.gov.nl.ca/about-us/what-we-do/

Now, don't get me wrong, there are RCMP detachments in all three provinces I mentionned, but they only operate in the purely Federal fields of jurisdiction (as I expressed them before). As for Nfld-Lab., perhaps they have some contract with the RCMP to provide some services to the province as a supplement to the RNC. On that, I have no information. Considering that until not so long ago the R,N.C. constables did not carry arms, it's quite possible that some such contratc exist, even today.

And from the Newfoundland and Labrador Department of Justice and Public Safety’s 2017-18 Annual Report.

https://www.assembly.nl.ca/business/electronicdocuments/JPSAnnualReport2017-18.pdf
Royal Newfoundland Constabulary (RNC)
The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary (RNC) is committed to providing a fully integrated police service that fosters community partnerships to build safe and healthy communities. While the RNC has the authority to act anywhere in the province, its service delivery areas include 11 municipalities on the Northeast Avalon, the City of Corner Brook as well as the town of Wabush, Labrador City and Churchill Falls in Western Labrador.

. . . .

Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP)
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) “B” Division provides provincial policing services to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador under the 2012 Provincial Policing Services Agreement (PPSA). The RCMP provides frontline policing to approximately 82 per cent of the geography of the province and approximately 55 per cent of the province’s population through 44 detachments throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. Four of the detachments are policed under Community Tripartite Agreements.

. . .
 

FJAG

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
675
Points
940
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Not quite correct, nor exact, FJAG.

I'll spare the thread the tedium of my response and pm you.

:cheers:
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
829
Points
890
FJAG said:
The RCMP isn't so much stretched thin. It recruits based on how many federal and contracted positions they need, but there are times where there are manpower/recruit flow shortages. One problem that they have is that their pay and benefits lag behind some of the bigger municipalities so there is some bleeding off of trained people. Oh, and don't get me started on stress leave.

Unfortunately this doesn’t come close to the gravity of the situation. The RCMP is stretched ridiculously thin. They’re short by about 2500 sworn members out of an authorized strength of 20,000 or so. That does not account for those who are off duty sick for physical or psychological reasons, it doesn’t account for parental leave either. In practice, pretty much everywhere is painfully thin and a lot of places are dangerously thin. The RCMP has had to choose to simply not do some things that would be expected of them because there’s no more Peter to rob.

Depot is running at capacity and not even really meeting replacement needs due to the boomers retiring. The very recent certification of a union should see a pay package in a few years; that will seat some retirements as people stick around to boost their best five years- probably quite a lot. The RCMP are Presently 92nd in Canada in terms of salary; roughly 17% behind the average salary of the top 20 paid services. And yes, salary is not the only factor in compensation- but it sure as hell hits recruiting and retention. These are police services with which the RCMP competes for quality recruits, and to which the RCMP loses a lot of members after a few years of service and the desire for geographic stability kicks in.

The RCMP has a long way to climb out of the mess it’s in.
 

ballz

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
107
Points
710
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Well, here is what the RNC itself says it does: https://www.rnc.gov.nl.ca/about-us/what-we-do/

"The RNC provides service to fifteen communities in three jurisdictions serves approximately 214,000 people in these jurisdictions."

Yeah...so I guess more than just Corner Brook and St. John's but my impression was correct. When you are in Nfld, it feels like a 50/50 split because you only see the RNC in a few select places given there are 271 municipalities and the RNC is only in 15 of them... but if you live in a place like Cox's Cove of 500 people where they don't police, you end up in Corner Brook all the time as a necessity of life and see them.

As Blackadder's post points out, by population it's about a 55% RCMP / 45% RNC split. Sorry for helping further derail the thread, I'm was just trying to figure out if I'm misunderstanding or not.
 

mariomike

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
200
Points
930
FJAG said:
Oh, and don't get me started on stress leave.

Me neither.

Brihard said:
The RCMP is stretched ridiculously thin. They’re short by about 2500 sworn members out of an authorized strength of 20,000 or so. That does not account for those who are off duty sick for physical or psychological reasons, it doesn’t account for parental leave either.

This is also prime time for pre-booked summer vacation in any organization. That must impact "surge capacity" for a large operation such as this.

Especially the longer it drags on.

 

JesseWZ

Sr. Member
Staff member
Directing Staff
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Brihard said:
Unfortunately this doesn’t come close to the gravity of the situation. The RCMP is stretched ridiculously thin. They’re short by about 2500 sworn members out of an authorized strength of 20,000 or so. That does not account for those who are off duty sick for physical or psychological reasons, it doesn’t account for parental leave either. In practice, pretty much everywhere is painfully thin and a lot of places are dangerously thin. The RCMP has had to choose to simply not do some things that would be expected of them because there’s no more Peter to rob.

I'll add to this with a personal anecdote. I dropped into Nelson, BC last year to interview a participant in an investigation. We often utilize the interview rooms of local detachments when we're on the road. I had dealt mostly with civilian administration staff on the phone, but I had been through Nelson before so I knew it to be a sizable (10k + community). Imagine my surprise when we showed up around 3:00 pm on a Friday to an empty detachment. The secretary was just leaving for the weekend and told me the only working member was on the road and respectfully requested we lock up the detachment upon completion of our interview. I was a bit flabbergasted, as it was the middle of summer, and Nelsons population swells with the tourism. Plus, several concurrent medium sized events were on that night, and they could only manage to field one person with the nearest on duty backup being Castlegar, BC, 30 minutes away.
 

mariomike

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
200
Points
930
JesseWZ said:
The secretary was just leaving for the weekend and told me the only working member was on the road and respectfully requested we lock up the detachment upon completion of our interview.

Where I live has had two officers per car since the 1970's. But, I am guessing that was a member working without a partner?
 

Blackadder1916

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
242
Points
830
JesseWZ said:
. . .  I was a bit flabbergasted, as it was the middle of summer, and Nelsons population swells with the tourism. Plus, several concurrent medium sized events were on that night, and they could only manage to field one person with the nearest on duty backup being Castlegar, BC, 30 minutes away.

Which would flabbergast me as well, except I would expect the "Nelson Police Department" would be responsible for the events that occur within the boundary of their municipality.  And the Nelson Police probably provide back-up to the RCMP detachment if the situation warrants.
The Nelson Police Department currently has three officers seconded to an integrated provincial traffic unit – the Kootenay Integrated Road Safety Unit (K-IRSU). Blended with members of the RCMP, this unit is mandated to conduct proactive traffic enforcement . . .
 

Alberta Bound

Jr. Member
Reaction score
11
Points
130
Apologies for my lack of skill on here and I have not been following the forum regularly for awhile.

I wanted to say to Brihard, great post. You are 100% on target.

You can bet that everyone involved will be armchair quarterbacking their own decisions. Having been the supervisor making decisions when gun calls, bomb threats, robberies, pursuits and all the other calls come in. There aren’t many times when you don’t look back at what you could have done better, faster, smoother, safer. I feel sadness for the people of N.S. especially those directly affected, it is devastating. Including those that made decisions that seemed correct at the time that will now haunt them the rest of their lives.

While I am confident that all the processes that will have months and years to pick apart the response will find areas for improvement. Some simpler than others. Some well meaning but not easily implemented.

I have never worked in H Division (N.S.). But I have been posted to K (AB), D (MB) & Nat HQ. Having done assignments in BC, SK, PQ, NWT, NFLD and International Policing. Most of that in front line operational policing, predominantly rural.

Many people think that rural policing is Mayberry. Slow speed, simple files, relaxed. Far from it. It is the hardest policing to be done. Large patrol areas, often numerous distinct communities, lower population ratios meaning less resourcing and limited access with long distances to specialty services. And long distance in each province and territory takes on different meanings like an hour drive, or 8 hours drive, 3 hr ATV ride, 2 hrs by hi rail, 1.5 hr by boat, 4 hr flight IF weather to land.

Your General Duty Cst in those spots does it all. School liaison, Media, traffic enforcement, first response to all types of calls including many violent ones. Then in almost all cases. That GD Cst takes on that investigation with limited help all the way to the end. I want to point out that the clearance rates and quality of investigations in rural RCMP detachments have been compared to “big city” police. They have been found to meet or exceed the standard. You don’t get “better” policing because you live in a big city. You just get a different delivery of policing.
I found as well trained and professional EMS, Firefighters, Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, etc in those small communities as I did in bigger centres. Often better as they were more well rounded. But like the police they were often staffed and equipped based on the lowest common denominator.

If you were to give me more money in many of those communities often I wouldn’t have bought more cops. I would have gotten more of all the people who can better address the underlying issues that cops have to deal with later.

To be good at front line operational policing and stick to it in your career, is a skill.

I have talked to members who worked with Heidi. She was THAT cop. Good with people, hard working and a solid investigator. I have no doubt that she made a calculated decision. Knowing the possible outcomes, and didn’t hesitate.

Drones, more helicopters Or fixed wing, 2 member cars are all nice ideas. In some instances we can improve in some of those areas. It only costs money. But it isn’t simple to do and in many cases while I want more resources. I don’t want them in 2 person cars. While the budget for a helicopter could get me so many of the things I need before I need a helicopter.
I worked in a northern community 10 hrs drive from Edmonton, where we policed about 2000 people in two communities. 8 members and 5 pickups, 2 snowmobiles and 2 ATVs. About 5000 investigations per year and 2500! Prisoners. 2 yr limited posting. Any extra funding I would have spent on my members to make life better and to get more members. A drone would have only helped out a dozen times a year. A helicopter maybe the same. But at what costs.

The RCMP has something like 10 different funding models:
International policing programs paid for by Foreign Affaires,
National policing programs that support all Canadian Law Enforcement Agencies,
Federal Policing addressing National - International crime, Terrorism, Borders, etc,
Protective policing, PM, GG, IPPs, Parliament,
Fenced funding For special positions and /or projects with other agencies, IE CBSA, CAF, etc

Contract Policing itself has small and big municipal contracts, enhanced positions, provincial policing, tripartite positions.

All of these have different ways to pay for salaries, equipment, how the money is spent and on what. Each has someone directing how they want their share spent. For the RCMP in AB to get another aircraft ( there are 4 now. 2 Pilatus, a Cessna and an A-Star) (The A-Star Isn’t for just traffic operations. That is a secondary role.) Who pays isn’t a simple answer.

I have been most scared when I have been alone or with a few members at something life threatening where more support was too far to matter.  I have been most stressed when making decisions for those calls that would directly affect others lives. I have seen people die because of their choices, but never one of the members I was leading, luckily. I have been proudest when my members have come through the other side having done their duty.

I am 25 years in and not sure I want to go many more. The RCMP (like any organization makes lots of mistakes,  almost always evolving and improving).I hope you all can appreciate a little of the complexity.

Sorry for the ramble.


 

mariomike

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
200
Points
930
Alberta Bound said:
I found as well trained and professional EMS, Firefighters, Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, etc in those small communities as I did in bigger centres. Often better as they were more well rounded. But like the police they were often staffed and equipped based on the lowest common denominator.

If you were to give me more money in many of those communities often I wouldn’t have bought more cops. I would have gotten more of all the people who can better address the underlying issues that cops have to deal with later.

:goodpost:

If you don't mind me asking, what is the funding formula?

In the municipality I am familiar with, funding was based on the census population, not its business day population.

As a result, there were always more people requiring service than the system was funded for.
 

FJAG

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
675
Points
940
Alberta Bound said:
...
Contract Policing itself has small and big municipal contracts, enhanced positions, provincial policing, tripartite positions.
...

You're bang on with the issues and I think that most Canadians lack an understanding of the function of the RCMP when doing contract policing. Rather than being a national force they are a police service basically filing municipal or provincial policing roles.

My son-in-law worked a number of years at Portage La Prairie in Manitoba which essentially has three detachments: a city detachment, a rural municipality detachment and a highways detachment. Manitoba, like many provinces does not have a provincial police force per se, it retains and contracts with the RCMP as do the various municipalities that do not have their own municipal police forces. In effect the coverage given in such situations is very much dependant of how much the province or municipality is prepared to spend and what the individual contract buy them from the RCMP.

:cheers:
 

mariomike

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
200
Points
930
FJAG said:
Rather than being a national force they are a police service basically filing municipal or provincial policing roles.

See also,

Who does what in policing?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901.0.html
2 pages
OP: "The RCMP are also the provincial police in the contracted provinces. This includes functioning as municipal police for several cities with 100k+ population, and many in the five figures."
 

MilEME09

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
271
Points
910
mariomike said:
See also,

Who does what in policing?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901.0.html
2 pages
OP: "The RCMP are also the provincial police in the contracted provinces. This includes functioning as municipal police for several cities with 100k+ population, and many in the five figures."

Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?
 

Colin Parkinson

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
681
Points
910
SeaKingTacco said:
Perhaps Dimsum could weigh in, but I do not believe that NavCanada has quite wrapped its head around RPAS operations in a VFR setting, which will limit how much any police force can use this technology for anything other than a specific incident or scene management. I don’t see RPAS doing traffic patrol any time soon, if that is what you are suggesting.

Part of the problem is all the legislation is being driven by pilots. The modern commercial and recreational drone (to use common usage) is not flown, it is directed, they fly themselves. The drones are eating away at the bread and butter jobs that keep civil aviation and helicopter companies alive. Your asking someone to mange that which is eating the rice out of their bowel. The reality is that soon manned aviation will be required to stay above X altitude (outside of landing, takeoff) so as not to interfere with drone operations which will be much more important economically. 
 

FJAG

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
675
Points
940
MilEME09 said:
Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?

Not sure that's necessary. The RCMP recruits and trains with those contracts in mind albeit that recruiting shortfalls, retirements and retention issues sometimes cause manning issues just like in the CAF. Much of the benefit that the RCMP brings to such communities is a consistent standard of training and detachment management which would be hard to achieve with small rural detachments.

Note too that in provinces with provincial police forces such as the OPP and QPP you have the same issues in that the provincial police does much of the rural and small municipal policing as well as bring a centralized forensic, major crime and specialized police capabilities to communities that would be hard pressed to provide it themselves.

:cheers:
 

Blackadder1916

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
242
Points
830
MilEME09 said:
Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?

What makes you think that the RCMP would have those resources and remain the same size if they were not contracted to municipalities and provinces?

British Columbia
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/justice/criminal-justice/policing-in-bc/the-structure-of-police-services-in-bc/municipal
Under the Police Act, municipalities with populations 5,000 and over must provide their own law enforcement by:

Forming their own police department
Contracting with an existing police department
Contracting with the provincial government for RCMP police services

Alberta
https://www.auma.ca/sites/default/files/Advocacy/resolutions/2009_policy_paper_2.pdf
TYPES OF POLICING ARRANGEMENTS IN ALBERTA
The Police Act (Alberta) provides for a municipality to receive policing services by:
• contracting with the federal or provincial government or another municipality for the
provision of policing services;
• establishing a stand-alone municipal police service; or
• establishing a regional police service with other municipalities, which may include the
province.
Under provincial legislation, urban municipalities of 5,000 population or greater must
exercise one of the options described above. Urban municipalities under 5,000 population
and all rural municipalities regardless of population receive policing services from the RCMP
under the provincial policing contract between Alberta and the federal government. Some
of these have contracted for enhanced policing to deal with special situations or have either
by themselves or in cooperation with other municipalities retained Peace Officers to provide
an additional police-like presence in their communities.

Nova Scotia
https://novascotia.ca/just/global_docs/NSRCMP_Fact_Sheet.pdf
The Provincial Police Service Agreement
Who’s responsible for policing? Policing is a municipal responsibility in Nova Scotia. Under
the Police Act, “Every municipality is responsible for the policing of and maintenance of law and
order in the municipality and for providing and maintaining an adequate, efficient and effective
police department at its expense in accordance with its needs.”
 

mariomike

Army.ca Legend
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Mentor
Reaction score
200
Points
930
Interesting discussion.

When I was very young, we had our own Village of Swansea police department. It was later amalgamated into Metro Police.

Not to say federal departments are better or worse than municipal. Just different.

An excellent discussion of the subject here,

https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901/post-1578640.html#msg1578640









 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
829
Points
890
MilEME09 said:
Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?

Where do you think the budget and bodies would come from? Surrey BC has been looking at this for a couple of years and, pre-COVID at elast, were on the cusp of putting it into practice. It's anticipated that a lot of the membership of the soon-to-maybe-still-be Surrey Police would come from existing RCMP members, or by poaching municipal members from Vancouver Police who live out closer to Surrey. There would be a big game of musical chairs as cops in the Lower Mainland bounce about finding the best spot for them, but in the end the RCMP would lose funding for a lot of bodies. In the short term a few hundred more Mounties would probably net out as available to fill existing vacancies elsewhere, but that's just a typical human resources shell game. It doesn't mean the RCMP would suddenly have more to work with. Any currently RCMP contract going to a municipal or provincial force would be pulling a lot of Mounties over with it. That would necessarily have to be part of the plan.

Even if a thousand new Mounties were dumped into the system tomorrow, it wouldn't suddenly mean there would be substantially more on the road in rural or remote communities.  It wouldn't mean more ERTs or containment teams. All thsoe bodies would immediately disappear into existing soft vacancies, filling positions that are filled and funded on paper but that are vacant in practice due to MATA/PATA, long term sick leave, etc.

It's money. It's always money. Any government, whether municipal, provincial, or federal, that wants the RCMP to have certain capabilities or resources will need to write a check. And, as Alberta Bound very neatly pointed out from his considerable experience, there's a lot of opportunity cost when you put resources into boutique units. In a lot of cases, putting an extra five or six members into a street crime or prolific offender team with investigative resources is going to do a lot more to keep the public safe on an ongoing basis. But when the feces hit the oscillating ventilator, people scream to have something (without being able to articulate what) in place that would almost never make sense to have and would take away form a lot of things that would...
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
Mentor
Reaction score
829
Points
890
mariomike said:
Interesting discussion.

When I was very young, we had our own Village of Swansea police department. It was later amalgamated into Metro Police.

Not to say federal departments are better or worse than municipal. Just different.

An excellent discussion of the subject here,

https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901/post-1578640.html#msg1578640

Maybe worth a thread split over to that one starting some time yesterday?
 
Top