What would you see as the dieal infantry officer?

[loyalist]

I've just been accpeted under ROTP as an infantry officer. Awhile back, a had a warehouse job, and one of my co-workers was an infantry soldier, or one in training. Apparently, OCdts are really looked down upon. While I do realize that the person was probably full of it, what is the best approach for a newbie OCdt or 2Lt to approacha seasond Sgt or WO? Personally, I admire senoir NCMs to the greatest degree, and would take their advice any day. This is more of a quyestion of opinion than anything else..

 

[Gunnar]

Depends what you're approaching them for....there's some good threads on the board about the difference between NCM's and Officers for a start...

Think of your NCM as the "lead hand" in the warehouse, who's been there for 20 years.  As an officer cadet, you'll be the college puke manager.  How would you approach the lead hand?

Do your research, try not to annoy him by asking dumbass questions and don't get in his way.  Ask specific questions which get direct answers, or simply ask for his help when he isn't busy.  People are still people, and the whole "more flies with honey" approach is still valid.

As an Officer, you will receive instruction in leadership, and you will learn techniques for approaching, handling and dealing with people.  In the interim, you might try reading some things by a guy named Wavell.

There is also a recommended CF reading list on the Regimental Rogue's site, which could give you a leg up on some of these things.  Starship Troopers springs to mind offhand.

Officer Cadets are really the lowest form of life in the army.  They are Officers by presumption, not by experience or training.  They can't do simple miltary tasks, and they haven't been trained to lead yet...in the eyes of their future subordinates, they are useless.  In the eyes of other officers, they are untrained, and therefore, largely useless.  This doesn't mean anything...it's a condemnation of your state as a new, untrained person, not your value as a human being.  Once you become a seasoned officer, you will either retain or lose the status of "useless" in the eyes of your subordinates, depending on how well you learn your lessons first time around...

Ask questions.  Learn from the people who came before you.  Do not offer your opinions or ideas until you are damn sure that they are of some use--because starting out, there is a lot you don't know, and there is a lot you have yet to learn.  Be the grey man...fit in, and learn.

 

[Pikache]

Well, I only have limited experience, but here's my advice. (Assuming that you are in a command position)

1. Listen to your senior NCOs. Most of the time what they say will make most sense, but in the end, the decision is yours and it is your responsibility that everything that goes on with men under your command. If you're not sure about something, ask someone who knows. Better you ask a thousand dumb question that makes you look dumb and ask one right question that will save a man under your command's life.

2. Know that you're not superman and never be afraid to say that you've screwed up when you do screw up, but make every decision you make is the best decision you make to best of your ability and be confident of it.

3. Know that respect from from men under you is always earned, never given. Never use your rank to try to get preferential treatment over your men.

4. You cannot lead from the rear, but know that you're no good to your men dead. Do not expose yourself to unnecessary risk. You as the officer will be the number one target by the enemy.

5. Know your men and promote their welfare. (Best one from 10 principles of leadership) Be friendly, but be firm. Ensure your men know that ultimately you are in charge and your orders are to be followed when given. Also know that you may also be required to send some of men under you to their death. Avoid it if you can, but accept it that you may have to do it.

Good luck

 

[c4th]

I admire senoir NCMs to the greatest degree, and would take their advice any day. This is more of a quyestion of opinion than anything else..

You have received excellent advice so far.  Assuming you are not BS'ing us and truly would take your senior NCO's advice then you are probably starting off on the right foot.

I like to tell my new officers that if they are doing something they are doing something wrong.  Understand your orders.  Make a plan (ask advice), issue good orders and delegate tasks.  Your NCO's will get the job done without you telling them the how.  You are paid to command, they are paid (more than you) to get it done.

Be fit.  Really fit.  Command gets much easier if you are in shape.  See lead from the front.  Watch out for 'leaders legs'.  Command gives you both energy and the ability to ration your energy according to your plan.  Soldiers do not have the same luxury so make sure you take care of them and don't drive them into the ground. 

Learn fighting patrols inside and out. 

When you get to the field phase of training in Gagetown plan on changing your sock three times a day (time permitting).  Have fun and pay attention (especially to the WO's).  No one is there to screw you around.  Keep that in mind and you may learn just enough.

Always use spell check.

 

[DELTADOG13]

Most of the advice above is well founded. I've had good and bad officers. Not all of them were bad because they thought they were above their troops. Some were bad because they didn't realise that officers come and go from a unit. 9 times out of ten those NCO's and soldiers have been their the whole if not all of the time. We've done most of it before. Take time to ask for advice if you don't know. If you don't know learn. There hasn't been a day I haven't learned something new in the army.
Realise though, you've been given a piece of paper that authorizes you to command others. When you give a command it will be obeyed no matter how retarded it may be. Good Luck.

 

[TCBF]

"Quote from: loyalist on Today at 15:07:07 I admire senoir NCMs to the greatest degree,"

Minor terminology issue:

The term NCM replaced the term OR (Other Ranks) in the 1980s.

So, we have Officers and NCMs:

NCMs consist of Warrant Officers (3 ranks), Senior NCOs, Junior NCOs, and Privates.

When we use the cultural  terms "Senior NCOs" or "Sgts Mess" we generally refer to Warrant Officers and Segeants and their Mess respectively.  These cultural terms date from the Cdn Army, which had three ranks of Senior NCOs (LSgt, Sgt, SSgt) and only two of WOs (WOI, WOII).

So, to speak of Senior NCMs is the equivalent of 'Senior Other Ranks - which may well be a grey haired Private.  Issues of the CF Newsletter dealt with this error.

If you want to refer to the ranks of WOs and Sgts using the cultural term 'Senior NCOs' thats fine, we all know what you mean, however Senior NCM has no legitimacy - cultural or otherwise.  

To summarize: we teach our recruits that NCM ranks consist of WOs, Senior NCOs, Junior NCOs and Privates.  Senior and Junior NCMs were never and are not legitimate terms.

 

[loyalist]

Officer Cadets are really the lowest form of life in the army.

I'm currently an air cadet. I know what it's like to be the lowest form of life in the forces altogether.

I know my first real posting's about four years (and a hell of a lot of training) down the road, but I'm trying to get a good look into CF culture before I get into the regular force...I'm trying to stay one step ahead. Thanks to you all for your responses!

 

[Heathan]

2. Know that you're not superman and never be afraid to say that you've screwed up when you do screw up, but make every decision you make is the best decision you make to best of your ability and be confident of it.

3. Know that respect from from men under you is always earned, never given. Never use your rank to try to get preferential treatment over your men.

And don't get tunnel vision, your objective will be completed best by letting those who do it do it to the best.This is so important in my mind.   Especially when your Pl Cmd and sometimes even Section commander are younger than those they command.   I hate being treated like a baby, at my age if I need to be told, I shouldn't be here.  

 

[Danjanou]

Actually you've just been handed an example of the kind of advice being dispensed here regarding listening to your Senior NCO's and letting them guide, teach you.

Look at the post above where TCBF corrected an error you made in terminology.

Something that happens more than once with young and eager Officers, you stepped on it and  here an NCO quickly, and fairly discreetly, stepped in, showed you your error, and corrected it. Didn't jump all over you, ridicule you or anything, just pointed out your small error. Odds are you won't make this one mistake again now. One down, hopefully not too more to go.

 

[loyalist]

Thanks! Seriously, I just want to learn (I'm up for four years of a lot of it), so I might as well get in the right mindframe. Mostly, I am omst concerned about the relationship between an OCdt (or recently commissioned 2Lt) and the senoir NCM (question: I have been old that the most senoir NCM is still referred to as the Sergeant-Major. Is this true?) during one's first deployment. From what I've gathered up to this date, you're really a student, and your warrant is your teacher (I've even heard the term "father" used). I have had not had the priviedge of talking to many CWOs during my cadet career and geting the point of view from the other side, as, well, one only encountered a reg force warrant officer on summer training and one learned to fear warrant officers. My goal is to try to see everyone's point of view, as I belive that will help me make better deicisons.

 

[George Wallace]

Just a point; one which you have failed to pick up from a couple of Posts on this topic; I was the most Senior NCM in my Regiment for several years and I was not a Sergeant Major, nor did I draw that pay.  

You have a lot to learn Grass Hopper.   You might as well start now.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Loyalist,

Bear in mind that I am an Armoured Officer but I will offer you my own observations. 

As for what makes an "ideal" officer you should be fit, professionally competant and a leader.  As a new 2Lt you are not expected to be perfect but you should be fit, smart, able to learn and have some people skills.  Some you will get taught, some are intrinsic to you.

Once you finish your training and arrive at your unit you will hopefully be assigned as a Platoon Commander.  You will have to form several very important relationships.  The critical one is with your Platoon Warrant Officer.  He is the second in command of the platoon and can run it very well in your absence.  Think of your platoon command as "finishing school."  Your Pl WO will try to steer you in the right direction.  Never make decisions about the men in your platoon without first talking to your Pl WO.  Each of your sections should have a Sergeant as the Section Commander.  All of these soldiers will have tons of experience and you are very lucky to be in our Army with these NCOs.

As a new Platoon Commander you will certainly be an unknown quantity.  I will say with some confidence that your Pl WO will want you to succeed.  As long as you are respectful of his experience and are open to advice you should be OK.  If you Pl WO takes you aside for some advice that is a good thing, even it is pointed and humbling.  I have been given some rather frank advice (and still get it) and I am honest when I say that I am grateful for it. 

If you feel that things are not going well between you and your Pl WO then you should probably take the intiative and try to resolve it between yourselves.  Don't go in and say "Look here...!", but rather ask if you are doing anything wrong.  Maybe you've given the impression that you won't listen (without actually meaning to).  I went through this once in the Reserves where I joined another unit for a callout.  I sensed after a few weeks that things weren't going well, so I invited the Pl WO to go aside and speak freely.  He let me know what the issues were (I was driving a little hard and didn't seem open to advice).  He was right.  I was trying too hard to "be hard", perhaps in order to try and fit in as an Armoured Officer in an infantry unit (all you amateur psychologists are free to chime in).  I thanked him and took his advice.  We got along very well from then on and I learned tons that summer (although I still pushed hard on exercises from time to time...) 

As mentioned by others you should be friendly and approachable without trying to be the troop's best friend.  I've seen some peers go down that path too far with unfortunate results.

One thing that your troops expect you to be good at is writing.  If they are submitting memos for higher you should take the time to draft them and put them in the right format.

You should introduce yourself to the Company Sergeant Major (CSM) and the CQMS.  In Armoured squadrons we have an Ops Sgt or Ops WO who will often pass on direction to you from higher.  Woe betide the Troop Leader who hangs around the CP too much and falls foul of the Ops WO!

A word on your peers.  As a 2Lt you should focus on surviving and not competing with your peers.  Get along with your fellow Platoon Commanders.  Listen to the Captains in your sub-unit.  You can go to them for advice.  As a new tank troop leader I was advised that the two most important people were for me were my Tp WO and the Sqn Battle Capatain (BC).

Sorry for the ramble and best of luck.

2B

 

[Yeoman]

someone that doesn't run me into the ground in PT, and cuts me loose at two.
*sigh* a dream a dream  ;D
to me I've gone through several officers (mind you not as many as some on here have, but enough to think I can say this), and there's nothing better to a private in a platoon of 40+ guys and your platoon commander acutally remembers both your first and last name is always willing to stop and seeing how you're doing, even if you're the phone orderly for the day will always mean that much more to a troop. the previous platoon commander I had was easily the best one I've had so far. he listened to the senior nco's, he organized some pretty cool training that we don't get to do that often (like cqb, I mean how often do you actually get to do that other then on biq?), he cared for all the troops, he was willing to listen to anyone's problems, his morning routine was great for PT (not always the co's route), he tried to always get you on a course if one came up, and he was just generally a fun officer to be around. this new platoon commander, heh we're on a first name basis already, and I've know em for two weeks  :blotto:
Greg

 

[paracowboy]

we're on a first name basis already

you're kiddin', right? You mean, he sometimes uses your first name? Which still ain't right, ya ask me.

 

[Yeoman]

you're kiddin', right? You mean, he sometimes uses your first name? Which still ain't right, ya ask me.

I don't always do it. we're just like that because we're on the rugby team together. I don't call him by his first name at work, he's sir there.
but personally I think it's important to know things like that, it just seems more personal and you'd do more for someone if you know their first name. maybe that's just me though.
Greg

 

[RCA]

Ideal Officer â “ I've  had a few,  so bear with me who can get this far!

THERE IS NO IDEAL, SO GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS!

THERE IS NO SILVER BULLET. The only advise I can give is .  ----- Make the tough decisions, and be prepared to live with them.  You are not in a popularity contest and the only means test is  - is the decision good for the mission. And there you have It.

Fuck you for all those who want a short cut. Either you have it or you don't...........

 

[Infanteer]

you're kiddin', right? You mean, he sometimes uses your first name? Which still ain't right, ya ask me.

Sounds like an Air Force thing....

----- Make the tough decisions, and be prepared to live with them.   You are not in a popularity contest and the only means test is   - is the decision good for the mission. And there you have It.

Fuck you for all those who want a short cut. Either you have it or you don't...........

Sounds like a Silver Bullet right there, sir.  ;D