(US) Army Orders Soldiers to Shed Dragon Skin or Lose SGLI Death Benefits
- Thread starter Arctic Acorn
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Well there is a CF cell at PEO/Natick
Of course these are the same people who are in league with CTS and "the TacVest is ergonomically correct - and the troops dont need that much ammo) -- so basically I would suggest not holding ones breath
Until all the young captains who have been in Afghan - are angry young majors and push some of the out of touch staff people off a cliff.
Of course these are the same people who are in league with CTS and "the TacVest is ergonomically correct - and the troops dont need that much ammo) -- so basically I would suggest not holding ones breath
Until all the young captains who have been in Afghan - are angry young majors and push some of the out of touch staff people off a cliff.
Infidel-6 said:
That's the thing though when do we step back and say "Sir you're a ******* idiot and are going to get troops killed." We don't haha. I remember that RCR RSM/CO ( Correct me if I'm wrong) who said they don't need more than 5 mags. I remember the guys who came into relieve us in Spin Boldack who were terrified by the stories we told them of the old Tac Vest and were honestly scared for their lives of running out of ammo. They were told by their Chain of Command they MUST wear it. The sad thing was Gen Hiller the man himself said you can wear whatever the frig you want at a "Troops Hour" they had. The CO/RSM didn't give a crap. I took this issue so personally when I had a meeting with Mr Laurie Hawn a MP of Downtown Edmonton on Remembrance day that's the first issue I brought up, it made him and I both sick. How "Uniformity and Dress" are taking a priority over troops lives.
You're totally right infidel bang on. We need these dinosaurs out. My platoon commander he was young and stupid though not old and decrepit. It only took a good sized fire fight and a few of his own soldiers almost dying (Literally the young man almost died) from heat exhaustion and dehydration , to realize you don't march your troops into the ground in 60 degree weather with little to no water. After his first firefight his "perception" changed, a little.
We do need those young Capts , Mcpls and Sergeants who have seen combat to become the new RSMs and COs. I agree completely. The sad thing is, the way the attrition rate was in 1PPCLI a lot of those combat vets are gone, it's not like they listened to us anyways
I apologize for the rant, I'm not even in the Military anymore. This stuff though just burns away at me.
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NBC is doing a segment on this right now. More to follow.
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So the program ended. Your right the adhesive did come up however the top dog for US armor said that Dragon Skin also had a tough time defending at room temp. The tests were limited and done by a independent source and Dragon Skin beat out the Interceptor armor in all tests. There were no tests done in Afghan/Iraq weather conditions (heat) and I showed add that the Interceptor armor did well. The maker of Interceptor armor (who has no financial gain) says that DS is the next gen (ie better). The US military also banned DS prior to doing any tests on it. The person that oversaw the tests to ban DS has since gone on to work for the competition. Democrats are now calling for full tests. The head armor guy has stated they don't do side by side comparisons but will the equipment meet or exceed a set standard.
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I like the concept of DS maybe they can work out the issues. Meanwhile I have been looking at the possibilities of nano armor.
http://www.memagazine.org/contents/current/features/narmour/narmor.html
And this:
http://www.isracast.com/Articles/Article.aspx?ID=28
http://www.memagazine.org/contents/current/features/narmour/narmor.html
And this:
http://www.isracast.com/Articles/Article.aspx?ID=28
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I spoke to one of the testors in the US Mil -- he fully beleives that the armor is GTG.
As well I beleive (and from feel of my vest I think it is true) that recent vests also have the disks wired together like old fashion scale mail.
As well I beleive (and from feel of my vest I think it is true) that recent vests also have the disks wired together like old fashion scale mail.
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It wouldn't surprise me if the makers of DS were looking at or inventing a better "glue" if it meant getting the DoD contract.
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Update.
Dragon Skin report spurs body armor discussion
By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday May 21, 2007 18:08:55 EDT
Army body armor officials announced Monday they would meet with members of Congress this week in the wake of recent media reports that question whether soldiers are equipped with the best body armor available.
Program Executive Officer Soldier commander Brig. Gen. Mark Brown made the announcement at a press briefing at the Pentagon Monday to explain why the Army refuses to allow its soldiers to wear controversial body armor known as Dragon Skin.
The briefing followed a May 20 NBC News report that presented results of independent ballistics tests commissioned by NBC. The tests were conducted May 3 in Germany. At NBC’s request, according to NBC News spokeswoman Barbara L. Levin, the Beschussamt Mellrichstadt laboratory did comparative testing of the Army's body armor, Interceptor, against Dragon Skin, a flexible body armor.
The tests show Level IV Dragon Skin vests outperforming Interceptor vests equipped with “ESAPI” plates in ballistic tests with various types of unnamed “armor piercing” ammunition.
“NBC News has blacked out the specific caliber of ammunition used in the tests, because the Army believes that level of detail may assist the enemy. NBC News did, however, share those details with the Army,” according to test results from NBC released May 20.
Brown, who oversees all body armor development for the Army, said today that the Army has requested specific details of how the test were conducted from NBC, but so far has not received that information.
In addition, Brown said he questions whether the “ESAPI” plates used in NBC’s tests were “certified” Enhanced Small Arms Protective Inserts that the service issues to soldiers deploying to combat.
Brown presented the results of the tests the Army conducted on Pinnacle’s SOV 3000 Level VI Dragon Skin vests May 16-19 at the National Institute of Justice-certified H.P. White labs near Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Md.
The tests subjected Dragon Skin against the same test protocols the Army uses to test its ESAPI and Enhanced Side Ballistic Inserts. The vests were exposed to temperatures ranging from -60 degrees to 160 degrees Fahrenheit, as well as being immersed in diesel fuel, oil and salt water for extended periods of time. After each of these exposures, testers shot the vests with armor-piercing ammunition, the most lethal small arms threat in the war.
Four out the eight vests tested failed after suffering 13 first- or second-shot complete penetrations with 7.62mmx63mm APM2 Armor Piercing ammunition, Brown said.
Dragon Skin report spurs body armor discussion
By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday May 21, 2007 18:08:55 EDT
Army body armor officials announced Monday they would meet with members of Congress this week in the wake of recent media reports that question whether soldiers are equipped with the best body armor available.
Program Executive Officer Soldier commander Brig. Gen. Mark Brown made the announcement at a press briefing at the Pentagon Monday to explain why the Army refuses to allow its soldiers to wear controversial body armor known as Dragon Skin.
The briefing followed a May 20 NBC News report that presented results of independent ballistics tests commissioned by NBC. The tests were conducted May 3 in Germany. At NBC’s request, according to NBC News spokeswoman Barbara L. Levin, the Beschussamt Mellrichstadt laboratory did comparative testing of the Army's body armor, Interceptor, against Dragon Skin, a flexible body armor.
The tests show Level IV Dragon Skin vests outperforming Interceptor vests equipped with “ESAPI” plates in ballistic tests with various types of unnamed “armor piercing” ammunition.
“NBC News has blacked out the specific caliber of ammunition used in the tests, because the Army believes that level of detail may assist the enemy. NBC News did, however, share those details with the Army,” according to test results from NBC released May 20.
Brown, who oversees all body armor development for the Army, said today that the Army has requested specific details of how the test were conducted from NBC, but so far has not received that information.
In addition, Brown said he questions whether the “ESAPI” plates used in NBC’s tests were “certified” Enhanced Small Arms Protective Inserts that the service issues to soldiers deploying to combat.
Brown presented the results of the tests the Army conducted on Pinnacle’s SOV 3000 Level VI Dragon Skin vests May 16-19 at the National Institute of Justice-certified H.P. White labs near Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Md.
The tests subjected Dragon Skin against the same test protocols the Army uses to test its ESAPI and Enhanced Side Ballistic Inserts. The vests were exposed to temperatures ranging from -60 degrees to 160 degrees Fahrenheit, as well as being immersed in diesel fuel, oil and salt water for extended periods of time. After each of these exposures, testers shot the vests with armor-piercing ammunition, the most lethal small arms threat in the war.
Four out the eight vests tested failed after suffering 13 first- or second-shot complete penetrations with 7.62mmx63mm APM2 Armor Piercing ammunition, Brown said.
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Interesting development if in fact NBC did use certified ESAPI plates.
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Bit misleading then... the article makes it sound like they did use ESAPI... is the Army insinuating it was some knock-off ESAPI from a third world country instead...?
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Well no one here knows what the exact tests were or specs. If NBC didn't use approved DoD plates then yes it would be mis-leading but why would they. NBC has no financial gain to support DS.
Army Defends Body Armor Quality
By Sgt. Sara Wood, USA American Forces Press Service
Article Link
WASHINGTON, May 21, 2007 – U.S. troops operating in Iraq and Afghanistan have the best body armor in the world, and the Army is constantly looking for ways to improve force protection, the general in charge of the program told reporters here today.
“Force protection is the No. 1 priority of the U.S. Army. We value our soldiers very highly, and we do everything we can do to ensure that they have the finest in force protection as they go into the battle,” Army Brig. Gen. R. Mark Brown, Program Executive Officer Soldier, said at a Pentagon news conference.
In response to a May 17 NBC News report challenging the Army’s use of Interceptor body armor vs. the newer “Dragon Skin” armor developed by Pinnacle Armor Inc., Brown today released information about the testing that ruled out Dragon Skin a year ago.
The tests were conducted May 16 to 19, 2006, at H.P. White labs near Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md. The Pinnacle armor was subjected to the same tests Interceptor body armor goes through, first being X-rayed and analyzed and then undergoing a series of live-fire tests, Brown said. The live-fire tests included room-temperature tests, harsh environment tests, and durability and drop tests.
Of the eight Pinnacle vests tested, four of them failed the tests, with 13 rounds penetrating completely on the first or second shot, Brown said. After the first complete penetration, the vests technically failed the test, but the Army continued the testing to be fair, he said.
More on link
By Sgt. Sara Wood, USA American Forces Press Service
Article Link
WASHINGTON, May 21, 2007 – U.S. troops operating in Iraq and Afghanistan have the best body armor in the world, and the Army is constantly looking for ways to improve force protection, the general in charge of the program told reporters here today.
“Force protection is the No. 1 priority of the U.S. Army. We value our soldiers very highly, and we do everything we can do to ensure that they have the finest in force protection as they go into the battle,” Army Brig. Gen. R. Mark Brown, Program Executive Officer Soldier, said at a Pentagon news conference.
In response to a May 17 NBC News report challenging the Army’s use of Interceptor body armor vs. the newer “Dragon Skin” armor developed by Pinnacle Armor Inc., Brown today released information about the testing that ruled out Dragon Skin a year ago.
The tests were conducted May 16 to 19, 2006, at H.P. White labs near Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md. The Pinnacle armor was subjected to the same tests Interceptor body armor goes through, first being X-rayed and analyzed and then undergoing a series of live-fire tests, Brown said. The live-fire tests included room-temperature tests, harsh environment tests, and durability and drop tests.
Of the eight Pinnacle vests tested, four of them failed the tests, with 13 rounds penetrating completely on the first or second shot, Brown said. After the first complete penetration, the vests technically failed the test, but the Army continued the testing to be fair, he said.
More on link
Army Seeks Body Armor for Deadlier Threat
Military.com | By Christian Lowe | June 27, 2007
Article Link
The Army has issued an industry-wide request for a new kind of body armor that can defeat even more powerful rounds than the current ceramic plate and has opened the door for the new armor construction that includes flexible systems many say are more comfortable than today's vests.
The new armor insert, dubbed "XSAPI," is intended to stop armor-piercing rounds more deadly than the ones the current "enhanced small arms protective insert" can defeat, will weigh less than a pound more than today's ESAPI and could have more coverage than the rigid ceramic plates currently fielded to U.S. troops in combat.
The Army's latest solicitation - dated June 20 - marks yet another chapter in the ongoing debate over allegations that the Army has ignored armor technology that could yield more protection and comfort than its current "Interceptor" vest. In May, an NBC investigative report raised questions over whether a certain type of body armor called "Dragon Skin" was stronger than the Interceptor - which is worn by most American troops in the field.
The NBC report - and the Army counter-attack that followed - gained the attention of the top lawmakers on the House Armed Services Committee, which held a hearing on the subject June 6 and demanded a new set of tests to prove once and for all whether Dragon Skin - or other armor using similar technology - was better than Interceptor.
Dragon Skin employs a flexible system of interlocking ceramic disks that the manufacturer, Fresno, Calif.-based Pinnacle Armor, says is more comfortable and can endure more rifle shots than Interceptor. The ESAPI employs a series of rigid ceramic plates inserted into the front, back and sides of the Interceptor "outer tactical vest."
After the congressional hearing, the Army revised its earlier May 27 request for new armor to test, adding the XSAPI specs and opening the offer to flexible, or "scalar," systems. The Army also extended the period for manufacturers to submit their proposals by 30 days - until the end of August - a move congressional staffers say will give Pinnacle plenty of time to submit the vests needed for testing.
"The Army seems to be accommodating Pinnacle as far as it can," a top House Armed Services Committee aide told Military.com.
The Army declined to comment on the new XSAPI requirement or on upcoming tests until after the service has determined a contract winner.
More on link
Military.com | By Christian Lowe | June 27, 2007
Article Link
The Army has issued an industry-wide request for a new kind of body armor that can defeat even more powerful rounds than the current ceramic plate and has opened the door for the new armor construction that includes flexible systems many say are more comfortable than today's vests.
The new armor insert, dubbed "XSAPI," is intended to stop armor-piercing rounds more deadly than the ones the current "enhanced small arms protective insert" can defeat, will weigh less than a pound more than today's ESAPI and could have more coverage than the rigid ceramic plates currently fielded to U.S. troops in combat.
The Army's latest solicitation - dated June 20 - marks yet another chapter in the ongoing debate over allegations that the Army has ignored armor technology that could yield more protection and comfort than its current "Interceptor" vest. In May, an NBC investigative report raised questions over whether a certain type of body armor called "Dragon Skin" was stronger than the Interceptor - which is worn by most American troops in the field.
The NBC report - and the Army counter-attack that followed - gained the attention of the top lawmakers on the House Armed Services Committee, which held a hearing on the subject June 6 and demanded a new set of tests to prove once and for all whether Dragon Skin - or other armor using similar technology - was better than Interceptor.
Dragon Skin employs a flexible system of interlocking ceramic disks that the manufacturer, Fresno, Calif.-based Pinnacle Armor, says is more comfortable and can endure more rifle shots than Interceptor. The ESAPI employs a series of rigid ceramic plates inserted into the front, back and sides of the Interceptor "outer tactical vest."
After the congressional hearing, the Army revised its earlier May 27 request for new armor to test, adding the XSAPI specs and opening the offer to flexible, or "scalar," systems. The Army also extended the period for manufacturers to submit their proposals by 30 days - until the end of August - a move congressional staffers say will give Pinnacle plenty of time to submit the vests needed for testing.
"The Army seems to be accommodating Pinnacle as far as it can," a top House Armed Services Committee aide told Military.com.
The Army declined to comment on the new XSAPI requirement or on upcoming tests until after the service has determined a contract winner.
More on link
