Ukraine - Superthread

[daftandbarmy]

I'm not sure how you'd describe "co-located, or almost co-located". Rough driving numbers according to Google Maps. Is 4 hours or more driving time really feasible for regular weekend exercises to learn and maintain fairly complex skills?

Saskatchewan Dragoons - over 4 hours drive to either Shilo or Suffield. 5-1/2 hours to Wainwright. 7+ hours to Edmonton
Fort Gary Horse - 2-1/2 hours to Shilo
British Columbia Regiment - 12 hours to Edmonton
British Columbia Dragoons - 9+ hours to Edmonton
South Alberta Light Horse - 0 hours to Edmonton (5+ hours for Medicine Hat & Lethbridge Squadrons) or 5 hours Edmonton to Suffield
King's Own Calgary Regiment - 3+ hours to Edmonton, 2-1/2 hours to Suffield
1st Hussars - 3 hours to Meaford, 6 hours to Petawawa
Windsor Regiment - 4-3/4 hours to Meaford, 7-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Governor General's Horse Guards - 2-1/2 hours to Meaford, 4-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Queen's York Rangers - 2-1/2 hours to Meaford, 4-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Ontario Regiment - 2-3/4 hours to Meaford, 4 hours to Petawawa
Royal Canadian Hussars - 3 hours to Valcartier, 3-3/4 hours to Petawawa
Regiment de Hull - 1-3/4 hours to Petawawa, 4-1/2 hours to Valcartier
Sherbrooke Hussars - 2-1/2 hours to Valcartier
12e Regiment Blinde Canada (M) - 1-1/2 hours to Valcartier
Halifax Rifles - 4 hours to Gagetown
Prince Edward Island Regiment - 3-1/4 hours to Gagetown
8th Canadian Hussars - 1-1/2 hours to Gagetown

Based on the above numbers I'd think that you could have the following Regimental pairings that might be workable:

Lord Strathcona's Horse (Edmonton/Wainwright) with South Alberta Light Horse and King's Own Calgary Regiment
Royal Canadian Dragoons (Petawawa) with Regiment de Hull
12e Regiment Blinde Canada (Valcartier) with 12RBC (M), Royal Canadian Hussars and Sherbrooke Hussars
Combat Training Centre (Gagetown) with 8th Canadian Hussars and possibly the Prince Edward Island Regiment

If we moved tanks into Shilo they could work with the Fort Gary Horse. Meaford would be convenient for a number of Ontario regiments, but is there even any capability of using that for tanks?

The problem is we don't have any tanks in Petawawa, Valcartier, Shilo or Meaford so establishing anything there will incur infrastructure expenses and there are questions of whether any of these areas are really suitable for combined arms training. So that really just leaves you with Edmonton and Gagetown right now which are really only convenient for regular weekend training for a grand total of 4 of our 18 Reserve Armoured Regiments.

Wow... that's a great little piece of staff work!

Any Reserve units within a 2.5 hour drive, or so, from a Reg F unit is well within range for a weekend exercise.

The BCRs? See you in the summer.... maybe.

 

[FJAG]

We'd still have to transport them to a port, most likely Montreal, by rail. Contract a RO-RO ship. Then ship them once that ship has become available & arrived in port...

Best case scenario our tanks would arrive in a month or so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the C-17 and the C-5 have the ability to transport and M1? Unless there is a dimensional issue doesn't that mean it can lift our Leo2s?

 

[RangerRay]

Wow... that's a great little piece of staff work!

Any Reserve units within a 2.5 hour drive, or so, from a Reg F unit is well within range for a weekend exercise.

The BCRs? See you in the summer.... maybe.

Maybe the BCR's should revert to rifles or fusiliers...

ducks and hides

 

[MilEME09]

Maybe the BCR's should revert to rifles or fusiliers...

ducks and hides

Or maybe it shows we need a training area in BC

 

[daftandbarmy]

Or maybe it shows we need a training area in BC

Driving 2.5 hours in any direction, except south, from downtown Vancouver puts you right in the middle of some of the largest mountain ranges in North America.

Which would make alot of sense if we had a mountain warfare mission, which would also have you condemned and flogged as a heretic should you suggest that of course.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Or maybe it shows we need a training area in BC

The Chilkoten enters the chat…

 

[FJAG]

Meaford would be convenient for a number of Ontario regiments, but is there even any capability of using that for tanks?

Meaford used to be used for basic armour training for both the RegF and ResF. I haven't been there in decades but Google Earth makes me think that the old tank hangar is still there. It strikes me as adequate to teach basic skills such as driving and static gunnery (assuming that there is practice ammunition available to fit in the Georgian Bay trace.) I think southern Ontario artillery regiments still use it for weekend live fire exercises.

The basic facilities are still there and with some effort could be made to work. Borden would provide your maintenance infrastructure.

The problem with Canada is that it always looks for the 100% solution and dismisses out of hand a doable 70% one. There's no need to use Meaford for tanks if you have no wish to train the three reserve units within a couple of hours of Meaford on tanks. There's no need to put LAV's in Meaford if you have no intention to train the dozen infantry regiments within a couple of hours of Meaford on LAVs.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Chilkoten enters the chat…

6 hours and 35 minutes.... in good weather, which is rare in the winter months when the Reserves are parading at home locations


https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Van...14ec1bd754c!2m2!1d-122.529743!2d51.968415!3e0

 

[GR66]

Driving 2.5 hours in any direction, except south, from downtown Vancouver puts you right in the middle of some of the largest mountain ranges in North America.

Which would make alot of sense of we had a mountain warfare mission, which would also have you condemned and flogged as a heretic of course.

While the comments on travel time were specifically about Armoured Recce units in BC training with a tank unit, you're point highlights the lack of imagination by the Army leadership in making the best use of what we have available. Not sure if you noticed but almost all of these units also happen to be sitting along side a big body of water...

 

[RangerRay]

The Chilkoten enters the chat…

The Chilcotin is about 6.5 -7 hours from Vancouver by car. Plus I am not sure how suitable it is for armoured training since it’s not very wide open, notwithstanding the fires that ripped through a few years ago. Having said that, it’s been a while since I was there so I could be wrong.

D&B beat me to it!

 

[daftandbarmy]

While the comments on travel time were specifically about Armoured Recce units in BC training with a tank unit, you're point highlights the lack of imagination by the Army leadership in making the best use of what we have available. Not sure if you noticed but almost all of these units also happen to be sitting along side a big body of water...

Dude... having had some background with 3 Cdo Bde, I noticed so much that people told me to shut up about it more than once.

If it doesn't look like the North German Plain, no one notices much around here

 

[GR66]

Meaford used to be used for basic armour training for both the RegF and ResF. I haven't been there in decades but Google Earth makes me think that the old tank hangar is still there. It strikes me as adequate to teach basic skills such as driving and static gunnery (assuming that there is practice ammunition available to fit in the Georgian Bay trace.) I think southern Ontario artillery regiments still use it for weekend live fire exercises.

The basic facilities are still there and with some effort could be made to work. Borden would provide your maintenance infrastructure.

The problem with Canada is that it always looks for the 100% solution and dismisses out of hand a doable 70% one. There's no need to use Meaford for tanks if you have no wish to train the three reserve units within a couple of hours of Meaford on tanks. There's no need to put LAV's in Meaford if you have no intention to train the dozen infantry regiments within a couple of hours of Meaford on LAVs.

The Meaford/Borden combination makes much sense to me. Southern Ontario is home to over 1/3 the total population of Canada and is seems crazy to me that there isn't a major effort being made to tap into that huge potential recruiting base.

The bonus is that Borden is nearby (1-1/2 hours away) as well so you could expand the facilities at RCEME to support the vehicle maintenance. If I recall correctly from my cadet days I believe there was even a tank gunnery range at Borden. And CFAD Angus is there for ammo.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The Chilcotin is about 6.5 -7 hours from Vancouver by car. Plus I am not sure how suitable it is for armoured training since it’s not very wide open, notwithstanding the fires that ripped through a few years ago. Having said that, it’s been a while since I was there so I could be wrong.

D&B beat me to it!

I raised it not as a serious solution, but sarcastically because of the well known problems with the Chilkoten. I should have been clearer.

 

[suffolkowner]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the C-17 and the C-5 have the ability to transport and M1? Unless there is a dimensional issue doesn't that mean it can lift our Leo2s?

seems like thats how the 4 will go one at a time via C17?

 

[dapaterson]

The Chilcotin is about 6.5 -7 hours from Vancouver by car. Plus I am not sure how suitable it is for armoured training since it’s not very wide open, notwithstanding the fires that ripped through a few years ago. Having said that, it’s been a while since I was there so I could be wrong.

D&B beat me to it!

The fires caused by a machine gun course firing tracer despite an extremely elevated fire index? Those fires?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I raised it not as a serious solution, but sarcastically because of the well known problems with the Chilkoten. I should have been clearer.

You know, for longer FTXs or courses (e.g., our MG course that burned the place down one May a few years ago) around Spring Break, or summer, it's a viable location.

But yeah, the logistics are daunting, and local FN land claims issues might see it disappear in the near future.

 

[RangerRay]

The fires caused by a machine gun course firing tracer despite an extremely elevated fire index? Those fires?

I was thinking the lightning caused fires that burned down half the Cariboo-Chilcotin in I think 2017.

 

[dapaterson]

Pro tip: the drive isn't as bad if you're in an old CAF pickle bus, still massively hung over from a birthday party that went well past last call at Earthquake Annie's the night before

 

[RedFive]

Maybe the BCR's should revert to rifles or fusiliers...

ducks and hides

I'm not sure you would see as much resistance to that from the Unit as you might expect.

 

[GR66]

I'm not sure you would see as much resistance to that from the Unit as you might expect.

I'm imagine if the change meant more meaningful and interesting training, better support/equipment from the Brigade/Reg Force and an actual role within the strategic framework of the Army then most units accept the change.