Ukraine - Superthread

[MilEME09]

I've been thinking and came up with Shilo. No, really. Hear me out.

Back in the 70s and 80s the Germans did all their training there for a full battle group so there are five adequate battle runs which can be used regularly for training. I expect the Leo 2 has different range templates from the Leo 1 but I expect that there are munitions which would fit within the existing ones there.

1 RCHA had a service/training facility built to handle a dozen M109s and other tracks which now holds just eight M777s. I expect with a bit of reshuffling on base, a squadron of Leos would be easily accommodated. There are a few additional storage facilities that are underutilized if you're looking for a place to hide away a few dozen more tanks in storage.

2PPCLI is there with a Mech battalion making it possible to do combined arms training in house and conduct such things as combat team commanders courses. 1 RCHA is there and has the FOOs and guns to support that as well.

There are plenty of PMQs.

There are two relatively close reserve units to work with. The FGH in Winnipeg and the SaskD's in Moose Jaw. Brandon Airport can easily handle Hercs so other reserve armoured squadrons could be easily flown in for something as simple as a weekend, especially from southern Ontario. There's a solid highway and rail line structure out of there. (There simply are no large population centres anywhere that have any suitable ranges. One needs a different solution such as stationary and non-tracked tank trainers with fly-in exercises and a permanent training facility. Shilo is considerably less busy that Gagetown - maybe the CAS should move its tank cell to Shilo)


Yup. I still think that.

Deterrence is of value when you have a large enough force deployed so that you merit your own national military map symbol on the NATO Orbat. Use Shilo as the main combined arms training facility and Europe for annual flyover exercises. - Make it a mech brigade with a Type 44 regiment for Europe and a 14-tank training squadron (plus spares ) in Shilo with 1 CMBG as the primary agency for flyover training and force generation - hell make Europe an extension of 1 CMBG. Give 1 CMBG in Canada just enough of everything to be able to run courses but do its exercises in Europe. While I'm dreaming, make 38 Svc Bn in Winnipeg a Heavy Equipment Transport company and an adjunct of 1 Svc Bn so stuff can occasionally be moved to Suffield or Wainwright for exercises.



Man, its easy to come up with plans.

Good plan but what about Suffield? Wuth the British pulling a lot of kit out, we could utilize their facilities that are empty

 

[FJAG]

Good plan but what about Suffield? Wuth the British pulling a lot of kit out, we could utilize their facilities that are empty

True but, limited PMQs and no infantry battalion or artillery regiment already there to make a battlegroup. But it's definitely a facility we should keep using.

 

[dapaterson]

True but, limited PMQs and no infantry battalion or artillery regiment already there to make a battlegroup. But it's definitely a facility we should keep using.

The CAF needs to differentiate between bases and training areas.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I've been thinking and came up with Shilo. No, really. Hear me out.

Back in the 70s and 80s the Germans did all their training there for a full battle group so there are five adequate battle runs which can be used regularly for training. I expect the Leo 2 has different range templates from the Leo 1 but I expect that there are munitions which would fit within the existing ones there.

1 RCHA had a service/training facility built to handle a dozen M109s and other tracks which now holds just eight M777s. I expect with a bit of reshuffling on base, a squadron of Leos would be easily accommodated. There are a few additional storage facilities that are underutilized if you're looking for a place to hide away a few dozen more tanks in storage.

2PPCLI is there with a Mech battalion making it possible to do combined arms training in house and conduct such things as combat team commanders courses. 1 RCHA is there and has the FOOs and guns to support that as well.

There are plenty of PMQs.

There are two relatively close reserve units to work with. The FGH in Winnipeg and the SaskD's in Moose Jaw. Brandon Airport can easily handle Hercs so other reserve armoured squadrons could be easily flown in for something as simple as a weekend, especially from southern Ontario. There's a solid highway and rail line structure out of there. (There simply are no large population centres anywhere that have any suitable ranges. One needs a different solution such as stationary and non-tracked tank trainers with fly-in exercises and a permanent training facility. Shilo is considerably less busy that Gagetown - maybe the CAS should move its tank cell to Shilo)


Yup. I still think that.

Deterrence is of value when you have a large enough force deployed so that you merit your own national military map symbol on the NATO Orbat. Use Shilo as the main combined arms training facility and Europe for annual flyover exercises. - Make it a mech brigade with a Type 44 regiment for Europe and a 14-tank training squadron (plus spares ) in Shilo with 1 CMBG as the primary agency for flyover training and force generation - hell make Europe an extension of 1 CMBG. Give 1 CMBG in Canada just enough of everything to be able to run courses but do its exercises in Europe. While I'm dreaming, make 38 Svc Bn in Winnipeg a Heavy Equipment Transport company and an adjunct of 1 Svc Bn so stuff can occasionally be moved to Suffield or Wainwright for exercises.



Man, its easy to come up with plans.

The BW ran Leo II in Shilo, I've spent the last two years cleaning up after them at Deilinghoffen. Problem is the base tore out all the target boxes and runups as soon as the Germans left. There is no infrastructure for any sort of sustained combat team exercises.

 

[FJAG]

The BW ran Leo II in Shilo, I've spent the last two years cleaning up after them at Deilinghoffen. Problem is the base tore out all the target boxes and runups as soon as the Germans left. There is no infrastructure for any sort of sustained combat team exercises.

Nothing that can't be rebuilt. It's the land that matters. I thought they might have run Leo 2's but that was after my time and I wasn't sure.

This is just fooling around with figures anyway. It's not like I see it happening. Although I have to say having a base where you can go from gun park to gun position in five minutes has some tremendous advantages when programming training activities.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Germans and the Brits have shown that you can actually run large tank forces in Canada, you just need to focus, plan and sustain.

 

[MilEME09]

The Germans and the Brits have shown that you can actually run large tank forces in Canada, you just need to focus, plan and sustain.

And manage your budget properly

 

[Kat Stevens]

Nothing that can't be rebuilt. It's the land that matters. I thought they might have run Leo 2's but that was after my time and I wasn't sure.

This is just fooling around with figures anyway. It's not like I see it happening. Although I have to say having a base where you can go from gun park to gun position in five minutes has some tremendous advantages when programming training activities.

From a reliable source, the guy who turned out the lights, locked the doors and handed over the keys to GATES, the German troops were gobsmacked when told they could spread out and play instead of staying in a 300m wide bowling alley. The base couldn't wait to level anything GATES left behind.

 

[FJAG]

From a reliable source, the guy who turned out the lights, locked the doors and handed over the keys to GATES, the German troops were gobsmacked when told they could spread out and play instead of staying in a 300m wide bowling alley. The base couldn't wait to level anything GATES left behind.

From my point of view GATES was pretty restrained and scripted. The battalions were allowed to develop their own exercises but pretty much every Black Bear, the final live fire exercise was pretty much the same. Two tank companies up, one Marder company behind, Aufklärer on the flanks and lots of artillery on the objective. It didn't compare to what the Brits were doing in Suffield but still it was wildly better than anything they did in Germany.

My guess is that cleaning up after GATES probably had to do with the fact that the Germans would pay for much of that. If we'd left it then it would have fallen on Canada. To top it off there was nothing much the Germans used there that was of benefit to Canada at the time. We only had the artillery regiment there then and the battle runs were of little use to us. It might have been different if we'd had a LAV battalion there then who would have been able to make use of the battle runs. I'm trying to recall what the battalion in Winnipeg had but I guess either M113s or more likely Grizzlies and I don't recall seeing them there on exercise very often anyway. A lot of their buildings were also getting long in the tooth and there weren't really any uses for them by us that would have justified the cost of maintenance. I find bases in general are all too happy to tear stuff down to get it off their annual maintenance schedule. Shilo was tearing down old H huts and the like at a furious rate.

 

[Kat Stevens]

From my point of view GATES was pretty restrained and scripted. The battalions were allowed to develop their own exercises but pretty much every Black Bear, the final live fire exercise was pretty much the same. Two tank companies up, one Marder company behind, Aufklärer on the flanks and lots of artillery on the objective. It didn't compare to what the Brits were doing in Suffield but still it was wildly better than anything they did in Germany.

My guess is that cleaning up after GATES probably had to do with the fact that the Germans would pay for much of that. If we'd left it then it would have fallen on Canada. To top it off there was nothing much the Germans used there that was of benefit to Canada at the time. We only had the artillery regiment there then and the battle runs were of little use to us. It might have been different if we'd had a LAV battalion there then who would have been able to make use of the battle runs. I'm trying to recall what the battalion in Winnipeg had but I guess either M113s or more likely Grizzlies and I don't recall seeing them there on exercise very often anyway. A lot of their buildings were also getting long in the tooth and there weren't really any uses for them by us that would have justified the cost of maintenance. I find bases in general are all too happy to tear stuff down to get it off their annual maintenance schedule. Shilo was tearing down old H huts and the like at a furious rate.

If you ever did battle runs in Senelager or Graffenwohr, you'd understand their sheer delight at the room they had to play in. Battle runs in Canada were no better, I could tell you the time by what hill or tree I was hiding behind on my way to Purple Ford or the glorious conclusion on Tower Hill.

 

[FJAG]

If you ever did battle runs in Senelager or Graffenwohr, you'd understand their sheer delight at the room they had to play in. Battle runs in Canada were no better, I could tell you the time by what hill or tree I was hiding behind on my way to Purple Ford or the glorious conclusion on Tower Hill.

Never in Senelager and my only time at Graf I didn't really get to see the ranges before moving on. I've seen them on Google Earth and can see the problems, though. My only times there were on Reforger related exercises as fly-over where we were just free wheeling all over the countryside.

I actually think something like that works for a reserve force where you do live fire in a constrained environment and then can do more tactical operations within your area of operations. Not to mention that it's a great recruit draw and big incentive to attend annual summer training.

 

[CBH99]

The Germans and the Brits have shown that you can actually run large tank forces in Canada, you just need to focus, plan and sustain.

Run large tank forces, sure.

But have those tanks be deployable on short notice? Not so much.


Let's say, hypothetically, we had 20 Leo's ready to send to Ukraine as soon as the call came in.

We'd still have to transport them to a port, most likely Montreal, by rail. Contract a RO-RO ship. Then ship them once that ship has become available & arrived in port...

Best case scenario our tanks would arrive in a month or so.


I know we can't predict the future, but we can anticipate it fairly well.

When Russia invaded Ukraine, the GOFO's wearing green should have made ordering parts & getting the tank fleet running smoothly a top concern. Especially when we started to send arms-packages consisting of our current, active inventory.

There was more than enough of a heads up between what we're seeing in Ukraine, the enemy they are faced with, NATO ministers meetings, etc that someone should have made sure our own tanks were at least deployable...

A GOFO is hopefully being taken to task, even if discreetly & internally.



I agree whole heartedly with the posts upthread, re pre-positioning kit overseas where it can be used rapidly.

And just donate all the Leo's, talk to the US & replace our fleet with Abrams. Arrange & pay to have 20-40 Abrams that are already pre-deployed to be ours in case of an emergency, and have some located where the armoured units are for training.

 

[GR66]

We already have Reserve Armd/Cav units co-located, or almost co-located, with Reg F Armd units in some cases. This shouldn't be difficult to arrange.

I'm not sure how you'd describe "co-located, or almost co-located". Rough driving numbers according to Google Maps. Is 4 hours or more driving time really feasible for regular weekend exercises to learn and maintain fairly complex skills?

Saskatchewan Dragoons - over 4 hours drive to either Shilo or Suffield. 5-1/2 hours to Wainwright. 7+ hours to Edmonton
Fort Gary Horse - 2-1/2 hours to Shilo
British Columbia Regiment - 12 hours to Edmonton
British Columbia Dragoons - 9+ hours to Edmonton
South Alberta Light Horse - 0 hours to Edmonton (5+ hours for Medicine Hat & Lethbridge Squadrons) or 5 hours Edmonton to Suffield
King's Own Calgary Regiment - 3+ hours to Edmonton, 2-1/2 hours to Suffield
1st Hussars - 3 hours to Meaford, 6 hours to Petawawa
Windsor Regiment - 4-3/4 hours to Meaford, 7-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Governor General's Horse Guards - 2-1/2 hours to Meaford, 4-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Queen's York Rangers - 2-1/2 hours to Meaford, 4-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Ontario Regiment - 2-3/4 hours to Meaford, 4 hours to Petawawa
Royal Canadian Hussars - 3 hours to Valcartier, 3-3/4 hours to Petawawa
Regiment de Hull - 1-3/4 hours to Petawawa, 4-1/2 hours to Valcartier
Sherbrooke Hussars - 2-1/2 hours to Valcartier
12e Regiment Blinde Canada (M) - 1-1/2 hours to Valcartier
Halifax Rifles - 4 hours to Gagetown
Prince Edward Island Regiment - 3-1/4 hours to Gagetown
8th Canadian Hussars - 1-1/2 hours to Gagetown

Based on the above numbers I'd think that you could have the following Regimental pairings that might be workable:

Lord Strathcona's Horse (Edmonton/Wainwright) with South Alberta Light Horse and King's Own Calgary Regiment
Royal Canadian Dragoons (Petawawa) with Regiment de Hull
12e Regiment Blinde Canada (Valcartier) with 12RBC (M), Royal Canadian Hussars and Sherbrooke Hussars
Combat Training Centre (Gagetown) with 8th Canadian Hussars and possibly the Prince Edward Island Regiment

If we moved tanks into Shilo they could work with the Fort Gary Horse. Meaford would be convenient for a number of Ontario regiments, but is there even any capability of using that for tanks?

The problem is we don't have any tanks in Petawawa, Valcartier, Shilo or Meaford so establishing anything there will incur infrastructure expenses and there are questions of whether any of these areas are really suitable for combined arms training. So that really just leaves you with Edmonton and Gagetown right now which are really only convenient for regular weekend training for a grand total of 4 of our 18 Reserve Armoured Regiments.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Let's say, hypothetically, we had 20 Leo's ready to send to Ukraine as soon as the call came in.

We'd still have to transport them to a port, most likely Montreal, by rail. Contract a RO-RO ship. Then ship them once that ship has become available & arrived in port...

Best case scenario our tanks would arrive in a month or so.

Timing is probably correct, though, if you are willing to pay for the cargo ship (doesn't have to be a Ro-Ro -as you can deck cargo on just about anything for only 40 tanks. That little weight is no big deal to cargo ships) to go max sustainable speed Montreal to Gdansk, transit can probably be done in 8 days.

But even taking a full month, does it matter? The Ukrainian need to train on the Leo 2's and other, closer nations would provide that training, so by the time the Canadian tanks arrive, the Ukrainians would be fully trained and able to just take the them over at the border and drive them to the front.

 

[YZT580]

I'm not sure how you'd describe "co-located, or almost co-located". Rough driving numbers according to Google Maps. Is 4 hours or more driving time really feasible for regular weekend exercises to learn and maintain fairly complex skills?

Saskatchewan Dragoons - over 4 hours drive to either Shilo or Suffield. 5-1/2 hours to Wainwright. 7+ hours to Edmonton
Fort Gary Horse - 2-1/2 hours to Shilo
British Columbia Regiment - 12 hours to Edmonton
British Columbia Dragoons - 9+ hours to Edmonton
South Alberta Light Horse - 0 hours to Edmonton (5+ hours for Medicine Hat & Lethbridge Squadrons) or 5 hours Edmonton to Suffield
King's Own Calgary Regiment - 3+ hours to Edmonton, 2-1/2 hours to Suffield
1st Hussars - 3 hours to Meaford, 6 hours to Petawawa
Windsor Regiment - 4-3/4 hours to Meaford, 7-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Governor General's Horse Guards - 2-1/2 hours to Meaford, 4-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Queen's York Rangers - 2-1/2 hours to Meaford, 4-1/2 hours to Petawawa
Ontario Regiment - 2-3/4 hours to Meaford, 4 hours to Petawawa
Royal Canadian Hussars - 3 hours to Valcartier, 3-3/4 hours to Petawawa
Regiment de Hull - 1-3/4 hours to Petawawa, 4-1/2 hours to Valcartier
Sherbrooke Hussars - 2-1/2 hours to Valcartier
12e Regiment Blinde Canada (M) - 1-1/2 hours to Valcartier
Halifax Rifles - 4 hours to Gagetown
Prince Edward Island Regiment - 3-1/4 hours to Gagetown
8th Canadian Hussars - 1-1/2 hours to Gagetown

or take the 295's and put them to some use as transports then go out and buy real airplanes for SAR. The air force use to have cosmos for local i.e. 2 to 3 hour shuttling.

 

[GR66]

or take the 295's and put them to some use as transports then go out and buy real airplanes for SAR. The air force use to have cosmos for local i.e. 2 to 3 hour shuttling.

A dedicated CAF airline service to shuttle around Reservists for training? I'll believe that happening when Mephistopheles starts complaining about snow drifts.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A dedicated CAF airline service to shuttle around Reservists for training? I'll believe that happening when Mephistopheles starts complaining about snow drifts.

When we were Ops tasked, they airlifted our entire Regiment, vehicles, guns and personal from Vancouver to Shilo via Herc.

Shilo 1984

Ex Limber Gunner

www.vancouvergunners.ca

 

[KevinB]

The CAF needs to differentiate between bases and training areas.

Bases should have training areas.
The ability to do work day live fire range work is fabulous, as you don’t waste time and material transiting to and fro.

 

[GR66]

Replying to a comment in the Leopard 2 thread to try and keep topics on track

My guess is they are going to husband the initial delivery of Bradley's and Marders, use them to stiffen the current lines. Once the tanks are in country and the crews, maintainers are ready, they will group them with the IFV's and use them in batches of 20-30 vehicles to hit at identified weak points in the lines. Any larger formation will likely strain logistics and invite heavy long range missile and artillery strikes by the Russians. Having three such formations, makes tracking harder for the Russians.

My guess is the Challengers will be used to stiffen existing defense and to support counterattacks to retake areas lost to small Russian advances. This will allow them to keep them to be maintained and stocked with ammunition, which is different than the Leo/M1 ammunition.

There will be newer T-72's arriving as well. My guess is they will not operate with the Western tanks so as to avoid blue on blue, so the western tanks will be free to fire on any T-series they see.

I think the West should be quickly working on decoys for the tanks, IFV and AD systems. These will make it harder for the Russians to target the real ones.

I know it would be politically VERY difficult for Ukraine, but I'm thinking that perhaps they should hold off on a Winter/Spring offensive to take time to integrate as many new western tanks, etc. into their formations. Prepare multiple lines of defence in depth and be prepared to give ground. Let the Russians launch their offensive first with their untrained and under equipped troops.

Once the Russian advance culminates (and if last February is any indication they almost certainly will well short of any key strategic objectives like Kiev) then use the Western tanks and IFVs to counter attack to retake territory and quite possibly encircle large numbers of Russian troops. A massive loss of Russian personnel and equipment would likely be a death blow to the Putin regime and provide a real opportunity for a negotiated Russian withdrawl.

 

[dapaterson]

Bases should have training areas.
The ability to do work day live fire range work is fabulous, as you don’t waste time and material transiting to and fro.

Bases should have access to training areas. The scope of training areas will vary - what's needed for a sub unit for a week is not what's needed for a brigade for a month, for example.

Sticking a unit in the middle of nowhere so they can be adjacent a training area they use 60 days a year may not be an optimal retention method.