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I find it fascinating that VVP’s ego only seems to allow him to take historical precedents that benefit his beliefs, but is apparently blind to some fairly significant historical issues in Russia, and previous Wars
Ukraine - Superthread
- Thread starter CougarKing
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Lots of selective Lessons Learned being applied/ignored.
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That kind of feels, with the towed light guns and the pickup trucks, like Ukraine digging in. Freeing up their Bradleys, Paladins and Leos for other duties?
Ukraine Situation Report: M109 Paladins Are Proving Too Wily For Russian Gunners
With its ability to 'shoot-and-scoot,' Paladin self-propelled Howitzers are keeping enemies pinned down and surviving to fight another day.
www.thedrive.com
FormerHorseGuard
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they do not even looked chained down, just a block in front of the track. Or did I miss something
FormerHorseGuard
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I realize some of the people on this forum could be considered experts in their fields, others like me are just advanced readers and can consume a lot of facts and ask questions if we do not understand or comment on what we do understand.
So here are my questions, besides the experts here, is this going to be the most Analyzed war in history of modern times?
Experts are weighing in wondering if the experts had it all wrong about former Soviet tactics, weapons, and battlefield planning, control and training? ( Since the Russians seem to still follow their preplanned programs) Were the intelligence people going off of bad information on numbers, actual data from captured weapons, vehicles, aircraft? Is the Russian equipment really that poor compared to NATO equipment? Did the facts given in the past warrant such massive investments in equipment to defeat the Russian military?
Is the NATO equipment that much better, or is the operator that much better trained and equipped to fight?
Or this a case of poor training of the soldiers, good equipment just not being used to its advantage and strengths?
Because if the Ukraine can take a lawyer and make her a master of the mortars to the point the Russians fear her, take sports fans and other people and train them to be elite commandos in such a short time, or is it because the Ukrainians are fighting on their home soil for their home land that is like the home team at sporting event feeding off the crown watching them and cheering them on to win?
Are drafted soldiers really that bad and uninterested in winning or fighting that their failures are failing the leadership or is the leadership failing the soldier?
Just some thoughts I have had.
Opie out
So here are my questions, besides the experts here, is this going to be the most Analyzed war in history of modern times?
Experts are weighing in wondering if the experts had it all wrong about former Soviet tactics, weapons, and battlefield planning, control and training? ( Since the Russians seem to still follow their preplanned programs) Were the intelligence people going off of bad information on numbers, actual data from captured weapons, vehicles, aircraft? Is the Russian equipment really that poor compared to NATO equipment? Did the facts given in the past warrant such massive investments in equipment to defeat the Russian military?
Is the NATO equipment that much better, or is the operator that much better trained and equipped to fight?
Or this a case of poor training of the soldiers, good equipment just not being used to its advantage and strengths?
Because if the Ukraine can take a lawyer and make her a master of the mortars to the point the Russians fear her, take sports fans and other people and train them to be elite commandos in such a short time, or is it because the Ukrainians are fighting on their home soil for their home land that is like the home team at sporting event feeding off the crown watching them and cheering them on to win?
Are drafted soldiers really that bad and uninterested in winning or fighting that their failures are failing the leadership or is the leadership failing the soldier?
Just some thoughts I have had.
Opie out
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I think a part of what you're seeing is the propaganda war in action.
The Lawyer come Mortar expert (The witch?) is one of many publicized situations (remember the Ghost of Kiev fight pilot?)
The Ukrainians appear to be mastering the propaganda and social media battlespace. This makes things seem to be going well, no matter how they are actually going in reality.
There have been references to the damage which Leo 2's have taken, and notes that not a single crewman was killed in those losses.
Compare that to the average T-72/T-80/T-64 which seems to toss their turrets the second they are in range.
The Ukrainians have, undoubtedly, downplayed their losses, whilst playing up those of the Russians.
Western Armour is a part of that social media campaign. Telling the west that our vehicles are junk would be a self-fulfilling prophesy - our gear is junk? OK, we'll stop giving it to you.
If the west isn't told that our gear is better, and that it protects the troops inside better, and so on, then that's a piece of the information battlespace that's been lost.
I will observe that you can take someone who's never handled a rifle before, and with mere hours of training, they'll be able to reliably strike a human sized target with every shot at 300 meters using a C-7.
Our gear is more ergonomic, and has more user input in the design than RUS gear. That doesn't mean that RUS gear is junk, it just means that to obtain the equivalent capability, there needs to be more training, more experience.
That's training and experience that the RUS mobniks and such are not receiving.
The First Gulf War was the dawn of the 24 hour news broadcast.
This war is truly the first war that's also being fought within the information domain.
The Lawyer come Mortar expert (The witch?) is one of many publicized situations (remember the Ghost of Kiev fight pilot?)
The Ukrainians appear to be mastering the propaganda and social media battlespace. This makes things seem to be going well, no matter how they are actually going in reality.
There have been references to the damage which Leo 2's have taken, and notes that not a single crewman was killed in those losses.
Compare that to the average T-72/T-80/T-64 which seems to toss their turrets the second they are in range.
The Ukrainians have, undoubtedly, downplayed their losses, whilst playing up those of the Russians.
Western Armour is a part of that social media campaign. Telling the west that our vehicles are junk would be a self-fulfilling prophesy - our gear is junk? OK, we'll stop giving it to you.
If the west isn't told that our gear is better, and that it protects the troops inside better, and so on, then that's a piece of the information battlespace that's been lost.
I will observe that you can take someone who's never handled a rifle before, and with mere hours of training, they'll be able to reliably strike a human sized target with every shot at 300 meters using a C-7.
Our gear is more ergonomic, and has more user input in the design than RUS gear. That doesn't mean that RUS gear is junk, it just means that to obtain the equivalent capability, there needs to be more training, more experience.
That's training and experience that the RUS mobniks and such are not receiving.
The First Gulf War was the dawn of the 24 hour news broadcast.
This war is truly the first war that's also being fought within the information domain.
MilEME09
Army.ca Fixture
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Or have they? russian ministries have reported requested 230k death certificates related to the war.
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I’m primarily an effects guy, so I’ll take the best swing at this from an equipment and training aspect.
Vietnam was revolutionary as the first TV war, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is the first Social Media War. So much data has been collected both on OS and Non OS means that the history can be verified by direct data, not just comparing unit war journals.
This is really a multifaceted question.
The RuAF is not the Red Army, while doctrinally it’s common, the size nor support and equipment levels aren’t nearly comparable.
One thing that is common is for any threat analysis of equipment is to take a worse case position. We in the West often downgrade our own capabilities, and expect that other nations also do the same.
We also aim for overmatching performance at the worst case.
One semi redacted example is we set a requirement to do X at Y meters. Which seems fairly straightforward until you realize that X was based off a non existent criteria, and the threat item is actually 1/2X.
When you couple that with the fact the Russians version of Peace Dividend was simply corruption lining pockets, there were significantly less of the 1/2X items as well, and not enough crew anyway.
Yes and Yes.
In the land of the Blind the One Eyed Man is King. Training and Morale are massive force multipliers.
Russia went on Ex in Belarus and had their soldiers in awfully poor conditions prior to invasion, and have continued to treat their soldiers like crap.
Drafted soldiers are generally less motivated that a volunteer army, one can partially alleviate that through training, but that requires a professional Officer and NCO Corps.
As I said above the issues of morale are massive. A trained army with a strong cause is going to fight a lot better than one without.
Russian forces that have achieved any kind of success have either been their best troops or Wagner PMC troops. Both have better training (or did) and generally better motivation.
Frankly I’m legitimately surprised more RuAF units have not mutinied.
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I'm not familiar with Witch, but if she has been leading troops in combat for a year or so in Ukraine, she's likely every bit as much of an expert as someone that has done a few courses and exercises over the span of a several years in a peacetime military.
Smart PR people use attractive looking people, and attractive people can be good at their jobs...
I don't doubt the Ukrainians are downplaying their losses to a certain extent, but I don't think there is too much reason to doubt that Western equipment is working as intended. Western vehicles are designed to save the life of the crew, because dead troops are worse PR back home than millions of dollars of kit destroyed.
Colin Parkinson
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As i understand it Ukraine also has a draft and moblized soldiers. However it has a better cause, treats their soldiers better, evacuates and treats wounded better, rotates units and personal out of combat and provides better training when they can.
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Derek H. Burney: Forget talks with Putin. Help Ukraine win this war
If a negotiated settlement gave Moscow rights to any land it seized, it would claim success and invade again
nationalpost.com
What he said.
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| 1935–36. | ||
| Regular Army, at home and abroad, including the British Troops on Indian establishment. | 257,464* | 208,630 | |
| Territorial Army | 312,890 | 175,094 | |
| Army Reserve | 147,000 | 113,000 | |
| Special Reserve | 80,120 | Nil | |
| Supplementary Reserve | Nil | 24,978 | |
| * Excludes 1,532 of the Royal Flying Corps and Central Flying School. |
BRITISH ARMY (STRENGTH). (Hansard, 9 March 1936)
BRITISH ARMY (STRENGTH). (Hansard, 9 March 1936)
api.parliament.uk
Propaganda or not WW2 was fought by something like 3 million civilians in uniform for the duration.
A lot of them ended up in weird mobs swanning around the desert in trucks, paddling kayaks, dropping into Yugoslavia and blowing up docks along the Atlantic Coast.
PS - judging from the 1935-36 and 1939 returns it would seem that a very large part of the "British" Army were actually Indians.
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I don’t think that’s an accurate description. There are no part timers in War.
Sure they may not have started off as professional soldiers at the start, but they sure were at the end.
SOF/Int work often requires folks with different skill and mentality from the CF. Generally above average intelligence, and a creative mind. Some combinations of that do poorly in a peacetime Military.
But the British Army strength in June 1945 was 2.9Million. I’m not sure the wartime ratio held for that.
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So.... How long does it take to turn a civilian into a professional?
Apparently less than 6 years. Those 2 to 3 million soldiers were recruited, mustered, trained and blooded, became victorious and retired in those six years - a lot of them "acting, unpaid".
Likewise a lot of the "unconventional" forces were heavily populated by non-regulation types.
I think "Witch" and "Kraken" and "Azov" would have found many like minded individuals 70 years ago.
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I’m pretty sure any quibbles about that disappear with the first incoming
I think Azov has more in common with the PPCLI, but it’s only in its second reconstitution so not quite there yet.
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2.9 million Brits
2.5 million Indian volunteers
0.8 million Canadians
0.7 million Australians
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I’m pretty sure any quibbles about that disappear with the first incoming
I think Azov has more in common with the PPCLI, but it’s only in its second reconstitution so not quite there yet.
Agree.
But the debate seems to spill over into the present time when considering training times, regular service, reserve service and voluntary service.
As you say, it seems that, in the field, quibbles disappear.
Perhaps that could be a planning consideration.
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Part of the issue is even the same theatre can have dramatically different issues to the point they can almost be different conflicts. The deeper the depth training and experience the faster one can adapt.
The individual level is noticeably, but at higher levels it’s critical.
Looking back at those SOE/OSS etc part timers, the training was incredibly difficult, and ironically a lot of them would have been bounced from current selection criteria during the psychological evaluation….
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And if we had had modern levels of certification the industrial revolution would never have happened. Says more about now than then.
GR66
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Looks like Ukraine is taking the fight against Russia (and Wagner) to Africa...
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