Tim Hortons in Theatre Merged Thread (in AFG, no plans to preposition)

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

A positive side effect of Timmys in Kandahar (or presumably any other theatre) is the international goodwill that it generates.

Dude, seriously?  Tim Horton's is not a tool of foreign policy.  Or at least it shouldn't be.  The point that I (and I think others) are trying to make is that there is a big difference between the inside and outside the wire experiences, and that Tim's is a distraction.  Who cares if our soldiers can't get a double double?  I'm especially non-plussed regarding the ability of our coalition partners to procure same.  Give me a freakin' break.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

If someone really wanted to give me a special day. Give me clean socks, underwear and baby wipes.

I would prefer if a contractor/coalition soldier came up to me and said: "hey are you a Canadian? You guys are top notch soldiers. Saved our @$$es the other day. You decimated the enemy, kudos"

Not "Hey are you a Canadian? Where'd the tims go?". See how it sounds?

Remember when the Germans saw Canadians on the front and that's when they realized... "Hey were going to be attacked"

 

[dimsum]

If someone really wanted to give me a special day. Give me clean socks, underwear and baby wipes.

I would prefer if a contractor/coalition soldier came up to me and said: "hey are you a Canadian? You guys are top notch soldiers. Saved our @$$es the other day. You decimated the enemy, kudos"

Not "Hey are you a Canadian? Where'd the tims go?". See how it sounds?

Remember when the Germans saw Canadians on the front and that's when they realized... "Hey were going to be attacked"

Believe me, we were (and still are) held in high regard by coalition forces. 

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

:

You're totally missing what he's saying.  Tim Horton's is a symptom of a problem. 

 

[PAdm]

I love a good thread. To recap, I am saying that as the theatre matured and the Tim's idea became a rock pushed off a hill, it gathered momentum and there was no stopping it (regardless if it was a good/bad idea). So it happened and I believe it was the right tool at the right time in our AFG mission. Perhaps the public liked the idea more than soldiers did, but the public pays the bills.

I am interested in the other perspectives coming up. Was it that much of a divisive issue for those outside the wire, and those further moved forward still?  Was there a perception that a lack of kit/supplies attributable to the Tim's resupply effort? 

While common sense states that money and effort to make issue X happen (Tim's) will take away from issue Y (bullets), part of the corporate stove pipe reality is that they are seen as separate issues. Tim's had to happen and I do not believe it could be (or should have been) stopped because of the good will it generated and the many who were behind it. Perhaps we could actually get a Tim's into KAF but in reality we cannot fix the bullet issue. Take success where you can??

Just a few thoughts and I am very interested in the feedback as the Tim's issue crosses into leadership, morale and welfare, politics, public engagement,etc.

 

[The_Falcon]

Here's what an experienced General Officer had to say about the abundance of non-warfighting bumph there was on giant bases such as KAF: "this is a war zone – not an amusement park". 

Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/25/us-commander-afghanistan-bans-burger-pizza

Don't be so quick to dismiss the ideas of those whose experience of the war was *more austere than that of others.

*edit- typo.

And?  Nothing changed, the Pizza Hut on the board walk became a KFC, Bagram still has it fast food joints, hell were I am in KAIA, I can get Pizza Hut, Burger King, Seattles Best Coffee, and there are a host of European run places.  Apparently Camp Phoenix down the road has even better options.

 

[little jim]

This is an interesting one.

First we used to joke that if you wanted to find useless excess Canadians just go look at the line at Timmies on KAF.

The issue of moral, welfare and recreation raises its head too.    I’m not saying that RC(S) was ever like Bosnia in terms of MWR but I think a lot of soldiers would be surprised at the living conditions at MSG now as compared to how they were back in ‘07/08 – at least they recently closed the massage parlor there….

Based on my limited observations during expeditionary operations, like we saw in 2002, the supply system  is more of a straw coming from Canada.  Once items enter the straw in Canada they will slowly be sucked to their destination.  It is also near impossible it seems to either remove something from the stream once entered or bump items up in priority.  This would be where bullets, beans and batteries need to be entered often.

Once a theatre’s supply line is established then we can introduce more formal welfare items as long as mission essential eqpt does not suffer.  Someone can correct me here but in four deployments since 2002 to now I can never recall having an operational shortfall due to MWR items.  Sure we wanted more ammo of a particular type but it just wasn’t available.

The flip side to this is as a theatre begins to draw down, to move back to expeditionary standards soldiers have to accept that they are going to start to move back to MREs/IMPs (moving to one a day now), MWR going away, gyms, tents, no more wireless internet…

To pile on PAdm post above a discussion needs to happen in terms of if we identify the requirement to have a large number of welfare items in order to keep soldiers occupied and out of trouble during their off hours, like we see in KAF and BAF, then maybe we need to look at how many people we are deploying and to what jobs overseas.

I, for one, will not shed a tear when they begin to tear down the boardwalk this October.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

You state the kaf timmies was the right tool at the time. How did it contribute to the security of the Afghan population? That was what we were there to do right? Or just collect the hazard pay and wear drop leg holsters in office trailers?

I was an 'outside the wire' type, and while there was no suspicion that we were lacking at the COP because of the timmies, it was certainly derided as a REMF luxury, a misplaced priority, and a source of embarrassment to us to see overweight CF members waddling out with an XL coffee and box of donuts.

In sum, how did it contribute to the mission of securing the Afghan populace?

I love a good thread. To recap, I am saying that as the theatre matured and the Tim's idea became a rock pushed off a hill, it gathered momentum and there was no stopping it (regardless if it was a good/bad idea). So it happened and I believe it was the right tool at the right time in our AFG mission. Perhaps the public liked the idea more than soldiers did, but the public pays the bills.

I am interested in the other perspectives coming up. Was it that much of a divisive issue for those outside the wire, and those further moved forward still?  Was there a perception that a lack of kit/supplies attributable to the Tim's resupply effort? 

While common sense states that money and effort to make issue X happen (Tim's) will take away from issue Y (bullets), part of the corporate stove pipe reality is that they are seen as separate issues. Tim's had to happen and I do not believe it could be (or should have been) stopped because of the good will it generated and the many who were behind it. Perhaps we could actually get a Tim's into KAF but in reality we cannot fix the bullet issue. Take success where you can??

Just a few thoughts and I am very interested in the feedback as the Tim's issue crosses into leadership, morale and welfare, politics, public engagement,etc.

 

[The_Falcon]

source of embarrassment to us to see overweight CF members waddling out with an XL coffee and box of donuts.

This is a little off topic, but my American civilian co-workers chide me endlessly about this here, especially the ones who are always wearing OTW shirts, even though they work in office somewhere on this camp.

 

[little jim]

In sum, how did it contribute to the mission of securing the Afghan populace?

It doesnt.  And that was probably never the intent. 

Would you get more bang for the buck if Timmies sent out triwalls full of coffee, creamers, sugar and table top coffee machines that we could send out of to the FOBs?

We treated KAF as a little in theatre RnR.  Give a soldier who might be lagging a quick day trip down to KAF on a re-supply run would often pay off.  The Timmies, a phone call home, maybe people watch for a couple of hours.  Then back out and into the fight.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

:

You're totally missing what he's saying.  Tim Horton's is a symptom of a problem.

Yes my point exactly, we're getting pretty good at identifying symptoms. But what is the problem?

A proposed new thread that this could be merged into. "A problem/symptom vs proposed solution" thread. As I'm sure we can have a mature thread where good ideas/solutions can come out of, instead of just identifying symptoms and problems which we seem to be experts at. As we can't expect others to solve the problems for us.

Who knows maybe some of it will actually get implemented. But that might just be the idealist in me, one of the rare times the realist loses.

 

[mariomike]

I know out here in Alberta most guys I know would happily chip in to make sure the troops get their Timmies when deployed.

The Tim Horton's gift cards were one way - there were many others, of course - to say, "Thank-you" to our men and women serving overseas.
http://shareacup.ca/welcome/

 

[The_Falcon]

The Tim Horton's gift cards were one way - there were many others, of course - to say, "Thank-you" to our men and women serving overseas.
http://shareacup.ca/welcome/

Cept when places like Battle Group HQ, hoard all of the gift cards coming in.

 

[GnyHwy]

Cept when places like Battle Group HQ, hoard all of the gift cards coming in.

I am quite, very, absolutely certain that those cards will reach the hands of the right persons coming in for HLTA/break/whatever.

 

[MedCorps]

Cept when places like Battle Group HQ, hoard all of the gift cards coming in.

I can also attest that the Health Services used them frequently for soldiers who were "a little shaken up" but otherwise uninjured, having come in from the field, or for buddies who came in on an evac with a guy who was really smashed up and just needed some downtime and hot coffee to reset while they processed the craziness.

MC

 

[The_Falcon]

I don't doubt some places doled them out to troops coming in for a break, but it was chaffing to see a large box of the things sitting in the OR, which the staff used to regularly purchase their multi-times a day tim's fixes.  My ISR system was broken for a period of about 2 weeks so while I was back in KAF I was handed over to the BOR for GD work.  Perhaps this only happened on my tour, but the BOR didn't hand them out to people coming in for breaks, or HLTA or whatever. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't doubt some places doled them out to troops coming in for a break, but it was chaffing to see a large box of the things sitting in the OR, which the staff used to regularly purchase their multi-times a day tim's fixes.  My ISR system was broken for a period of about 2 weeks so while I was back in KAF I was handed over to the BOR for GD work.  Perhaps this only happened on my tour, but the BOR didn't hand them out to people coming in for breaks, or HLTA or whatever.

I've seen the same.

But without tim Hortons people a would have one less thing to to bitch and cry about against people stationed  in KAF, can't take that away from the troops 

 

[OldSolduer]

The problem is that we, some of the leadership of the CF have created expectation that troops - corporals and privates - absolutely require Tim's, Wendy's, KFC and WiFi etc - to function.

Know your troops and promote their welfare. Welfare to me means ensure that they get the training required, they are kitted out properly, they are quartered and fed. It does not mean supplying them with round the clock entertainment or Internet. It does not mean that they need Tim's or any fast food. It does mean the get their mail on time.

A little deprivation and hardship rarely hurts anyone.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

Know your troops and promote their welfare. Welfare to me means ensure that they get the training required, they are kitted out properly, they are quartered and fed.

This is probably for another thread, but while were on the subject area. The bolded above is a huge upset for me. I feel the system has been set up to train the senior leadership.

A little deprivation and hardship rarely hurts anyone.

On the contrary, it builds character.

 

[PAdm]

You state the kaf timmies was the right tool at the time. How did it contribute to the security of the Afghan population? That was what we were there to do right? Or just collect the hazard pay and wear drop leg holsters in office trailers?

I was an 'outside the wire' type, and while there was no suspicion that we were lacking at the COP because of the timmies, it was certainly derided as a REMF luxury, a misplaced priority, and a source of embarrassment to us to see overweight CF members waddling out with an XL coffee and box of donuts.

In sum, how did it contribute to the mission of securing the Afghan populace?

If it made the Cdn public and politicians/PM feel good, then that gives us support (= funding). If you were the CDS, would you have shotdown the idea??