The Great Gun Control Debate

[Jarnhamar]

People with firearms protect money, wild animals, malls, jewelry, parks, car lots, movie stars, musicians, empty buildings. But we balk at the idea of adding a layer of protection to protecting children by arming teachers.

 

[mariomike]

And to be clear,  canada has some work to do as well

Yes. Also, how low Japan ranked. Considering it was discussed yesterday.

( Regarding the graph in Reply #3880. )

 

[Altair]

I'd be hesitant with the "hire veterans" idea, or at least not rush in to supporting it
-Veteran is an an ambiguous term ranging from a 30 year Special Operations retiree to someone who couldn't pass basic training.
-roll creep may be a big concern
-mental health issues or concerns

If as a society, Americans and the American political class is unable or unwilling to limit access to guns, especially among those who are mentally ill, irresponsible, or downright malicious, then the only other way to deal with this is by making every target a hard target. If bad people are going to have access to guns, then the only way to stop them is for good guys to have guns, and preferably more guns or bigger guns.

When I was in New York last, I noticed armed soldiers walking around at major sites, Grand Central, The Oculus Mall at the old WTC site.

They are part of Operation Empire Shield, https://www.army.mil/article/174735/empire_shield_soldiers_stand_watch_to_prevent_another_911.

Since 9/11, Soldiers with the New York National Guard have signed on as part of Joint Task Force Empire Shield, which places a military presence throughout New York City at transit hubs like Grand Central Station, Penn Station, LaGuardia Airport, and various bridges and tunnels.

Headquartered at Fort Hamilton, an active-duty Army installation in Brooklyn, New York, the task force is a response to the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

"Our mission is to deter and detect terrorism," said task force commander Lt. Col. Peter P. Riley. "We're not law enforcement. We're there to support law enforcement. We're not there to arrest people for minor crimes. We're there to deter terrorism and notice any type of inappropriate activity."

So I can only imagine that if it's run in that way, vets are not a bad idea. Naturally ,some standards need to to be put in place, maybe 3-4 years service, a clean service record, a mental health assessment, ect, but if the US isn't going to start tackling who can get a gun, the other, more expensive solution is to have guys with guns everywhere.

 

[RangerRay]

As a Canadian firearms owner who vehemently opposed the long-gun registration and am annoyed at the requirements placed on restricted firearms owners, I believe that the NRA should drop the intransigence and start proposing REAL solutions (turning schools into fortresses with armed teachers and/or guards?  Really?).  These outrages are starting to turn extremely normal people into militants who have given up on their politicians to show leadership.  They will demand the politicians do something or get booted out of office, regardless the amount of money the NRA floods their campaigns. If they stick to this 2nd Amendment absolutism and their fevered conspiracy theories, they will get left on the wrong side of history as more moderate firearms owners desert them and politicians see the NRA's support as a liability instead of an asset.

I can see more extremely normal people being radicalised into gun control activists when there are more outrages in the near future.  You know there will be more.

 

[pbi]

As a Canadian firearms owner who vehemently opposed the long-gun registration and am annoyed at the requirements placed on restricted firearms owners, I believe that the NRA should drop the intransigence and start proposing REAL solutions (turning schools into fortresses with armed teachers and/or guards?  Really?).  These outrages are starting to turn extremely normal people into militants who have given up on their politicians to show leadership.  They will demand the politicians do something or get booted out of office, regardless the amount of money the NRA floods their campaigns. If they stick to this 2nd Amendment absolutism and their fevered conspiracy theories, they will get left on the wrong side of history as more moderate firearms owners desert them and politicians see the NRA's support as a liability instead of an asset.

I can see more extremely normal people being radicalised into gun control activists when there are more outrages in the near future.  You know there will be more.

I agree. As both Altair and Journeyman have reflected, the NRA has unfortunately confused its traditional support for responsible firearms ownership (which I generally support) with all sorts of  feverish far-right conspiracy-mongering nonsense such as here:

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/02/22/after-trumps-endorsement-the-nra-denounces-the-fbi-calls-democrats-saboteurs-and-says-reporters-love-mass-shootings.html

Responding to concerns about school shootings and access to weapons by essentially shrieking "YOU HATE AMERICA!!!" is stupid, and as noted by others here, possibly self-defeating. (although, given the US political climate, that could take a while...)

One thing I find interesting is this: it seems to me that only a few years ago, anybody who criticized the CIA or the FBI or the US national security apparatus in general, or spoke about "The Deep State" was suspect as a "lefty" or "unpatriotic" or "unAmerican" or "soft on crime" etc etc.  Now, it seems that certain folks in what might be called the "right" or "conservative" camp are declaring open season on  those agencies. What's up with that?  rly:

 

[Jarnhamar]

I wouldn't say knee jerk reaction but the ban AR movement still seems quite misplaced to me.
Some 5% of the firearms used in homicides in the US were rifles, AR15s maybe 1 or 2%? Less?

Weapon of choice for school shootings? Maybe. In 2017 in the US were were 15 shooting deaths in schools (not all of which were by currently enrolled students). I'll take a look at what was used but I'm willing to bet handguns account for at least half, if nor more.

With over 40'000 vehicle fatalities in the US in 2017 I'd argue going after drunk and distracted drivers is going to save more kids, if "saving kids" is the goal.



Changing sights a little Quebecs new January 2018 long gun registry doesn't seem to be doing too well. Out of an estimated 1.6 million long guns in Quebec there's been about 5000 registered.
$17 million to establish and $5 million annually to maintain a list of 5000 rifles. Good economy of effort there.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Interesting, this website (https://everytownresearch.org/school-shootings/) represents there were what appears to be more than 40 school shootings in the US last year, but when I read deeper some (but obviously not all) of the occurrences there was no shooting mentioned: "Attack on other persons(s) resulting in injury or death"

On the flip side, "Gun fired but no one injured" and of course, " Attempted or completed suicide, with no intent to injure other person" seems to be a frequent flyer.

Among the many arguments to not arm teachers is this: " Gun fired unintentionally resulting in injury or death"


 

 

[mariomike]

Weapon of choice for school shootings? Maybe.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jackie+brown+chick+with+guns&&view=detail&mid=BE8A5BE847D453534E0ABE8A5BE847D453534E0A&&FORM=VRDGAR

With over 40'000 vehicle fatalities in the US in 2017 I'd argue going after drunk and distracted drivers is going to save more kids, if "saving kids" is the goal.

They make cars safer now than they used to. Most of the old death traps that were around before the 1975 Ontario seat-belt law and MADD, are gone.

Laminated and tempered glass windshields, airbags, crumple zones, side-impact beams, collapsible steering columns, padded dash and side boards, child car seats, roll-over bars, suicide doors are gone, improved fuel system integrity and fire retardant materials etc...

Traffic fatalities fall to lowest level since 1949
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/01/traffic.fatalities/index.html

 

[Jarnhamar]

Looking at 2017 school shootings causing death (homicide) in the US

-April 10, 2017 - 3 dead. Large caliber revolver.
[shooter targeted his estranged wife and a child was also shot]

-May 4, 2017 - 2 dead. firearm not mentioned
[murder-suicide by a stalker, victim was aware of being stocked but thought nothing of it]

-September 13, 2017 - 1 dead. AR-15 rifle and a handgun
[But there were warning signs. Harper said Sharpe recently had become obsessed with school shooting documentaries, and his YouTube account shows Sharpe and his friends acting out violent scenarios with replica BB guns.
And weeks earlier, around the time classes started, Sharpe had written notes to some of his friends indicating he planned to do “something stupid. Told fellow students he was going to “teach everyone a lesson about what happens when you bully others.”]

-November 14, 2017 - 6 dead.  .40-caliber Smith & Wesson pistol, .45-caliber Glock pistol, two semi-automatic rifles (Ar15 Style)
[had a history of mental illness and anger management issues, as well as an obsession with conspiracy theories.
Deputies were called to Neal's Bobcat Lane home 21 times for various reasons in 2016 and 2017]

-December 7, 2017 - 3 dead. Glock 9mm
["Shooter had been investigated in 2016 by the FBI when he asked "where to find cheap assault rifles for a mass shooting" on an online forum]


3 out of 5 school shootings in that time frame (2017) can be classified as mass shootings.
Shooters either seemed to go on a rampage because of bullying or to murder someone specifically
Having an AR15 doesn't generally seem to make for a large body count -



Did we ever figure out where the Parliament Hill shooter got his gun?

Traffic fatalities fall to lowest level since 1949
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/01/traffic.fatalities/index.html

Your source is 7 years old my friend.

U.S. Traffic Deaths Rise for a Second Straight Year
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/business/highway-traffic-safety.html

Traffic deaths edge lower, but 2017 stats paint worrisome picture
Traffic deaths in the U.S. pulled back slightly in 2017, according to the National Safety Council.
There were an estimated 40,100 motor vehicle deaths last year, or a drop of 1 percent from the prior year.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/traffic-deaths-edge-lower-but-2017-stats-paint-worrisome-picture.html

And from CNN

Despite safer cars, traffic fatalities are on the rise
http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/06/autos/fatal-traffic-accidents/index.html

 

[Jarnhamar]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27489/father-cnn-producer-looked-people-push-narrative-ryan-saavedra?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro


Another Flordia school shooting survivor accuses CNN of pushing scripted questions.

Classy.

On Thursday, the alleged scandal involving CNN censoring students and looking to politicize the recent Florida school shooting grew more serious as a new accuser came forward and said that the leftwing network began seeking out people with certain views who would push a specific narrative in interviews the day after the massacre left 17 students dead.

 

[mariomike]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27489/father-cnn-producer-looked-people-push-narrative-ryan-saavedra?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro

"By Ryan Saavedra"

This Ryan Saavedra?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSpkhg3U0AAscNh.jpg

Classy.  :sarcasm:

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yes MM, that same guy. From the same picture you've posted like 10 times now.

Still not as classy as CNN ambulance chasing,  trying to push scripted questions on children who survived a traumatic mass shooting then calling them liars.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/02/22/shooting-survivor-claims-cnn-scripted-questions-for-town-hall-meeting/amp/

 

[mariomike]

Yes MM, that same guy. From the same picture you've posted like 10 times now.

Only as long as you insist on quoting him. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Only as long as you insist on quoting him. 

Well I posted another source. Will you go ahead and offer your own actual opinion or just continue with deflecting?

 

[mariomike]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27489/father-cnn-producer-looked-people-push-narrative-ryan-saavedra?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro


Another Flordia school shooting survivor accuses CNN of pushing scripted questions.

Classy.

QUOTE

Claim: CNN asked a survivor of the 14 February 2018 mass shooting in Parkland, Florida to deliver scripted remarks during a televised town hall.

Rating: False

https://www.snopes.com/did-cnn-give-shooting-survivor-questions/

END QUOTE

 

[Jarnhamar]

Edited for compliance. 

 

[garb811]

Enough of the sniping, back to the discussion at hand.  If you want to debate legitimacy of sources ad nauseum, start another thread or go to PMs.

-Staff

 

[Journeyman]

I can see more extremely normal people being radicalised into gun control activists when there are more outrages in the near future.

Interesting term, which you used twice.    :rofl:

"I'm afraid he's not just normal, but extremely  normal....."    rly:

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sorta like the very high readiness.

 

[Infanteer]

You're right.  It's an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy designed to make the reader believe what he's saying based on facts unrelated to the argument.  Whether he was shot in combat or not has no bearing on the issue of school security and firearms policy.