The Great Gun Control Debate

[pbi]

I think this is an excellent summary.

Yes, indeed. And with their small hands, they are ideally suited to reach in and pull out misfires.

 

[Altair]

Those kids aren't going away. Good on them keeping this in the news.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's great they're channeling their efforts into something other than eating tide pods (seriously) but their fevor will die down once they realize their protests won't change anything and something else comes along.

How many of them do you think play first person shooters, own grand theft auto 5 or went to John Wick on opening weekend?

Those kids are chief among the problem. How they brutally treat each other from classroom and online bullying to driving their peers to suicide.
Mix inept policie with lack luster mental health services/follow up and you have a recipe for murder whether it's with a gun, knife, bomb or car.

 

[Altair]

It's great they're channeling their efforts into something other than eating tide pods (seriously) but their fevor will die down once they realize their protests won't change anything and something else comes along.

How many of them do you think play first person shooters, own grand theft auto 5 or went to John Wick on opening weekend?

Those kids are chief among the problem. How they brutally treat each other from classroom and online bullying to driving their peers to suicide.
Mix inept policie with lack luster mental health services/follow up and you have a recipe for murder whether it's with a gun, knife, bomb or car.

If those kids didn't have as much access to powerful weapons,  they couldn't kill as much as they do.

A kid with murderous intent isn't going to rack up the same body count in a school using a knife or car,  and to date I haven't heard of a school being successfully bombed.

As for movies and games, its a stretch to say that those are leading kids to commit mass murder. Millions play gun based video games and watch violent gun based movies,  few emulate what they see.

 

[mariomike]

I haven't heard of a school being successfully bombed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

 

[Altair]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Is that actually the most recent time that has happened?

 

[mariomike]

Is that actually the most recent time that has happened?

I would not know. Other than what I have read here,

While the Sandy Hook is likely the worse mass shooting of school children in U.S. history, it is not the worse mass killing of school kids. That record goes to the killing of 38 elementary school kids in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927.

"Killed 38 elementary schoolchildren and six adults and injured at least 58 other people."

 

[pbi]

It's great they're channeling their efforts into something other than eating tide pods (seriously) but their fevor will die down once they realize their protests won't change anything and something else comes along.

How many of them do you think play first person shooters, own grand theft auto 5 or went to John Wick on opening weekend?

Those kids are chief among the problem. How they brutally treat each other from classroom and online bullying to driving their peers to suicide.
Mix inept policie with lack luster mental health services/follow up and you have a recipe for murder whether it's with a gun, knife, bomb or car.

I think there is some merit to what you're saying, although as Altair points out it probably isn't the whole story.  Repeated exposure can dull our perception of how "bad" or dangerous something is, or normalize it. Look at the public use of obscenity, for example. I mean, nobody gives a f*** about that s*** these days, right? ;D.

While all of the people who play a video shooter endless times, or watch a violent movie, etc are probably not going to rush off to commit an atrocity, I think it is safe to say that there is a percentage of the population who are highly suggestive. In a more benign way, look how quickly silly fads or trends catch on and spread. Like eating tide pods.

Jarnhamar mentioned brutal online bullying: I would point out the sickening habit of sending graphic death threats to anybody who expresses an opinion or belief you don't like, or who acts in a way you disagree with. How much exposure to that type of behaviour is necessary before some people get numbed to the idea of killing? Again, we are probably only talking about a few people, but then serious criminals are only a small fraction of the population to begin with. It doesn't have to affect "everybody".

 

[FJAG]

It's great they're channeling their efforts into something other than eating tide pods (seriously) but their fervor (FTFY) will die down once they realize their protests won't change anything and something else comes along.

How many of them do you think play first person shooters, own grand theft auto 5 or went to John Wick on opening weekend?

Those kids are chief among the problem. How they brutally treat each other from classroom and online bullying to driving their peers to suicide.
Mix inept policie with lack luster mental health services/follow up and you have a recipe for murder whether it's with a gun, knife, bomb or car.

Maybe the legislatures would take some action if instead of being in a school, the next mass shooting were in a legislature?

I know, I know. It sounds crass but sometimes you just have to wonder what it will take for some of these State legislatures to actually take notice of what their voters (instead of the gun manufacturers lobby group - the NRA) want. I mean on the same day the Florida legislature rejects any action on assault rifles it declares porn as a health risk. Really???

:cheers:

 

[Halifax Tar]

As for movies and games, its a stretch to say that those are leading kids to commit mass murder. Millions play gun based video games and watch violent gun based movies,  few emulate what they see.

Millions of AR15s (And their knock-on variants) are privately owned but very few actually kill people.

 

[mariomike]

While all of the people who play a video shooter endless times, or watch a violent movie, etc are probably not going to rush off to commit an atrocity, I think it is safe to say that there is a percentage of the population who are highly suggestive.

Hope not considering all the John Wayne / Audie Murphy type war and western movies we watched ( and played at ) as kids. 

Pride of the Marines: "You know, I bet it would be more fun to shoot Japs than bears."

Millions of AR15s (And their knock-on variants) are privately owned but very few actually kill people.

Maybe some are amazed at how fast those very few can kill and wound so many people in a civilian environment?

 

[pbi]

While the Sandy Hook is likely the worse mass shooting of school children in U.S. history, it is not the worse mass killing of school kids. That record goes to the killing of 38 elementary school kids in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927.

Hey!! Sandy Hook never happened!! Don't you watch InfoWars??

 

[Altair]

Millions of AR15s (And their knock-on variants) are privately owned but very few actually kill people.

Very few people who watch violent movies and play violent video games will kill people, and very few people who own AR-15s will kill people, but when it comes down to where to focus on stopping those few people, where do you think it's going to have the most effect, video games and movies, or at the guns?

Personally, I think that some people are going to have murderous intent no matter what, usually unstable people with mental health issues, and the only way to mitigate the damage they are going to do is by limiting their access to guns that can mow down people.

This is not to say that I don't think people should have guns. I don't think people who are mentally ill should have guns. I don't think people with a record should have guns. I don't think people should be able to get guns so quickly, sane or not. I think guns need to be stored more stringently, so that a unstable family member cannot access them as easily to do harm to others. I don't think that a patchwork system of tracking who can and cannot have a gun is the best way to go about it, especially when information not passed from one agency to another results in people slipping through the cracks. I don't think accessories that turn semi automatic weapons into fully automatic weapons is a wise idea when there is a ban on fully automatic weapons.

All of that allows sane, responsible people to own guns while protecting the public at large from those who are not sane or responsible.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As far as I know, FJAG, at least one representative was shot at a political rally in her own state (Cathy Gilford) and a few other members of the House of Representatives have been shot near DC while playing baseball. That didn't help to change anything.

If anything, the crazier supporters of the second amendment - often found in those "free" militias - would probably tell you that the very purpose of the amendment is to permit them to arm themselves against the very government, and as such, assassinations are a valid exercise of their Second Amendment Rights. 

 

[mariomike]

If anything, the crazier supporters of the second amendment - often found in those "free" militias - would probably tell you that the very purpose of the amendment is to permit them to arm themselves against the very government, and as such, assassinations are a valid exercise of their Second Amendment Rights. 

But, the US government has nukes! 

If Canadian gun laws are strict, compare them to Japan's,
http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-control-how-japan-has-almost-completely-eliminated-gun-deaths-2017-10
"Japan is a country of more than 127 million people, but it rarely sees more than 10 gun deaths a year."

 

[Stoker]

But, the US government has nukes! 

If Canadian gun laws are strict, compare them to Japan's,
http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-control-how-japan-has-almost-completely-eliminated-gun-deaths-2017-10
"Japan is a country of more than 127 million people, but it rarely sees more than 10 gun deaths a year."

Still a very violent society with a very high suicide rate.

 

[mariomike]

Still a very violent society with a very high suicide rate.

https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=h9eNWs-0MsOKjwTik5aICA&q=japan+crime&oq=japan+crime&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.13362.16416.0.16714.13.13.0.0.0.0.191.2003.0j13.13.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.13.1971...0i67k1j0i22i30k1j35i39k1j0i131i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1.0.MLfNwkUX04Y
"The murder rate of 0.3 per 100,000 people is among the lowest in the world."

Hey!! Sandy Hook never happened!! Don't you watch InfoWars??

Talk of "Crisis actors" in this most recent massacre.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22crisis+actors%22&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A2%2F14%2F2018%2Ccd_max%3A2%2F21%2F2018&tbm=

 

[Jarnhamar]

If those kids didn't have as much access to powerful weapons,  they couldn't kill as much as they do.

I agree those kids shouldn't have access to powerful any weapons.  Especially kids who had the cops called on them 39 times and make school shooting threats under their own name on YouTube. But would banning an AR15 have prevented this? Or would that latest shooter maybe just got a pump action shotgun?  7 or 15 rounds of OO buck can do some damage in a confined space.
People looking at this should concintrate on the purchasing of *a* firearm by this guy, not the kind.

A kid with murderous intent isn't going to rack up the same body count in a school using a knife or car,  and to date I haven't heard of a school being successfully bombed.

You mean hasn't racked up that body count yet. There's examples of mass stabbings in Asia and its silly to assume he couldn't have drive a car into a crowd of people. How much effort does that take?

As for movies and games, its a stretch to say that those are leading kids to commit mass murder.

Leading no. Desensitized yes.

Millions play gun based video games and watch violent gun based movies,  few emulate what they see.

HT beat me too it. 10s of millions of Americans own [an estimated 270 million] guns in the states.  Relatively speaking few of those are used in murders. Well perhaps by school and work place shooters. We know where 80%ish of the murders are taking place and by who.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Very few people who watch violent movies and play violent video games will kill people, and very few people who own AR-15s will kill people, but when it comes down to where to focus on stopping those few people, where do you think it's going to have the most effect, video games and movies, or at the guns?

I think that our current cultures fascination with murder, death, violence and penchant for quick flash to bang actions, in all forms of media is probably numbing peoples respect for human life, and eroding our youths ability to calmly approach a problem.  The deranged will always find away.  France's recent problems with deranged peoples provide excellent examples of that.

Personally, I think that some people are going to have murderous intent no matter what, usually unstable people with mental health issues, and the only way to mitigate the damage they are going to do is by limiting their access to guns that can mow down people.

I am of the opinion that this is only going to stop the law abiding.

This is not to say that I don't think people should have guns. I don't think people who are mentally ill should have guns. I don't think people with a record should have guns. I don't think people should be able to get guns so quickly, sane or not. I think guns need to be stored more stringently, so that a unstable family member cannot access them as easily to do harm to others. I don't think that a patchwork system of tracking who can and cannot have a gun is the best way to go about it, especially when information not passed from one agency to another results in people slipping through the cracks. I don't think accessories that turn semi automatic weapons into fully automatic weapons is a wise idea when there is a ban on fully automatic weapons.

Generally I take no issue with what you say here.  But we have to be careful about who decides who is mentally unstable.  Meaning for example the vengeful spouse VS a qualified medical expert.

All of that allows sane, responsible people to own guns while protecting the public at large from those who are not sane or responsible.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Maybe some are amazed at how fast those very few can kill and wound so many people in a civilian environment?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/beginning-era-1966-university-texas-clock-tower-shooting-n620556

Ended up killing 17 people in all and wounding 30 with a bolt action rifle in 6mm. It was police and armed citizens with their own rifles that provided suppressing fire.