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The Great Gun Control Debate

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Lumber said:
Just what does it being developed as an instrument of war have to do with it?

I don't know, it was you that was bringing up how a firearm was originally designed as an instrument of war, I was pointing out how irrelevant that is. Thanks for agreeing.

Lumber said:
I don't know which of my posts you were reading, but my position is that you have to treat firearms differently that other harmful objects. A little girl isn't going to reach into her mothers purse at Walmart and accidentally shoot herself with a bottle of gin. Everything needs to be evaluated and regulated based on its own merits and vices.

On their own merits and vices? Okay then, let's compare the number of deaths related to firearms to the number of deaths related to deaths by motor vehicles then shall we?

Automobile fatalities in Canada in 2011: 6 / 100,000 ppl
Firearm related fatalities in Canada (average from 2007 - 2011): 2.22 / 100,000 ppl

So, basing this on "their own merits and vices" idea (*your* idea, I'll remind you), now that we can see that cars are clearly more dangerous than firearms (although 3x as dangerous), I guess that means you'll now be satisfied if we have laxer regulations of firearms than we do on cars.
 
ballz said:
Automobile fatalities in Canada in 2011: 6 / 100,000 ppl
Firearm related fatalities in Canada (average from 2007 - 2011): 2.22 / 100,000 ppl

Those stats are meaningless until you consider how many households within that average block of 100,000 have cars, and how many have guns. Then you need to consider the likelihood of a death among the population with similar accessibility to the two items.
 
Lumber said:
Just because I support rules and regulations regarding gun use and ownership doesn't mean I am a staunch supporter of draconian rules.

It is the draconian rules that we are all up in arms about. The article that RG posted that you were responding to was about draconian rules that *will* (already has) lead to firearms being taken out of the hands of lawful citizens.

Lumber said:
All I was saying was that a specific news article did not say that the Liberal platform would take guns out of the hands of lawful gun-owners.

The article didn't need to directly say that. Those of us who own firearms know the consequences of this type of legislation. It has already happened. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

Lumber said:
I tried not to vilify any of you for your opinions (unless you think I'm lying about the veiled insults), but I feel like I'm not getting fair treatment; I've been called a bigot and a "grabber" (whatever that means).

I wish I would have Googled the word bigot before I used it. It is not what I was trying to describe. If firearms-owners were a race, the word would be racist. In this case I guess its just that you're discriminating against firearm owners. I'm sure that doesn't make you feel any better but its true. If we put in a law that said people needed to justify why they wanted to buy a locksmithing kit, that would be us assuming that anyone that wants to buy a locksmithing kit is intending to break and enter someone's house. Yet you don't think its discriminatory to expect a law-abiding citizen to justify why they want to buy a firearm. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

Lumber said:
And, no, the second sentence in this paragraph is not an opportunity to continue debating the efficacy of said gun-control laws, ballz and c_canuck.

Don't worry, I have no interest in debating the efficacy of gun-control laws as long as you still think their purpose is to target criminals.

Lumber said:
First, I respectfully disagree. Explosives have legal, practical purposes (mining, road building), but if my neighbour who's on disability and doesn't work and drinks beer all day wanted to buy some dynamite, I'd want to know why. Right now I think the law is flaud, in that the only two answers you're allowed to say is "sport shooting" or "hunting". If you say "self-defence" or "job proficiency" (say you're a police officer or military and want to improve your marksmanship, then there's a potential for them to deny your application for a PAL. To me that criteria/list is just wrong, but I don't think it's wrong to ask the question. We need to improve the law/requirement, not get rid of it all together.

This nuance isn't written anywhere in the law. This nuance is the result of Chief Firearms Officers making up their own laws. It makes me scratch my head that you think something like this has any effect on anything. As was already alluded to, no one is going to say "well, I'm thinking of using it to shoot my wife." Make no mistake, this is just the CFOs harassing firearm owners. Once you state your "reason," they then have other strings attached. If you are a recreational shooter, you now must own a range membership and provide proof of the membership. And if you're brand new to the range and they have a probationary period, that's not good enough, so you're not allowed to bring your firearm home until you've got the full range membership. So you can't become a full range member without having shot, but you can't bring home your firearm without having a full range membership. Do you really think this wasn't designed to literally just fuck law-abiders around?

So you want to bring your firearm home, so you say "collector." Well, now you're subject to have your collection inspected without warrant, and you're not allowed to take it to a range because hey, you're not a recreational shooter.

I would like to know when the Canadian public is going to let me be an full-on adult and be responsible for myself and my property.
 
Michael O'Leary said:
Those stats are meaningless until you consider how many households within that average block of 100,000 have cars, and how many have guns. Then you need to consider the likelihood of a death among the population with similar accessibility to the two items.

Are they meaningless? I thought the point of firearms regulations was to save lives? If we want to save lives why don't we target things that cause the most fatalities, like cars? I am reading that there are about 30.8 firearms / 100 ppl and 60.7 cars / 100 ppl. So despite cars being twice as prevalent in our society, they are almost three times as more likely to cause a fatality.

I actually thought it would be easy for us to all agree that cars are actually deadlier than firearms, but I guess not :facepalm:

This is the same logic I would use with trying to prevent violent crime, but gun control advocates don't abide by. Most firearms regulation is out of irrational reaction to something like a mass shooting, which represent the tiniest tiniest fraction of homicides. If we want to stop homicides, why don't we target what homicides are most correlated with... instead of focussing on the things that we see on TV that sparks an emotional response out of us.
 
ballz said:
So despite cars being twice as prevalent in our society, they are almost three times as more likely to cause a fatality.

Twice as prevalent?

There are over 60000 cars per 100000 population. (Source.) This means that approximately 100% of the population owns, resides with or comes in proximity to motor vehicles on a regular basis.

There are about 6000 licensed firearms owners per 100000 population. (Source.) Even if you want to suggest that there could be as many armed criminals as legal gun owners, say 12,000 total, that would mean 30,000 people have regular proximity to guns (based on an average household size of 2.5 (Source) and one owner (of one type of the other) in a household.

Now consider that your stat of "Automobile fatalities in Canada in 2011: 6 / 100,000 ppl" is based on an actual count of 100,000, all of whom may potentially be in a position where a vehicle accident could kill them almost every day.

But, while "Firearm related fatalities in Canada (average from 2007 - 2011): 2.22 / 100,000 ppl" is averaged over 100,000, probably 70,000 of them are not in regular proximity to guns. When you consider that rate based only on the people who are likely to be in regular proximity, it increases to 3 times that rate, assuming that legal and illegal gun ownership have the same risks of death occurring. When you want to eliminate or greatly reduce the legal gun owners from that count because of the assumption of training, responsibility, etc., the risk increases even more in those households with poorly supervised guns.

Your stats don't work because the prevalence of cars versus that of guns present two very different risk cases within that 100,000.

I've got no problem with gun ownership, but if you're going to use stats and data, try not to have a rational examination of the same figures work against your own argument.


(Edited to correct some of the math.)
 
Michael O'Leary said:
Twice as prevalent?

There are 607 cars / 1000 people.
There are 308 firearms / 1000 people.

Yes, that's right, there are almost twice as many cars in Canada as there are firearms.

I'm not sure what you did, but it looks you compared the number of firearm *owners* to the number of cars, instead of the number of *car owners.* Much like cars, some people own one firearm and some people one 3 or 4.

You've also decided that because there are 60% cars to people, that that means 100% of people come within proximity of a car, but 30% firearms to people means that only 30% come within proximity of a car.

You also seem to have arbitrarily come up with some sort of definition of what "proximity" is or means and arbitrarily measured it and decided that people are around cars more than they are around firearms. There is, of course, no way to tell how often you are around firearms. You don't know how many people you walk by on the street that are carrying illegally, you don't know how many firearms someone has in their closet when you visit, you don't know if the gas station attendant keeps one behind the counter, you don't know who keeps one in their car.

I get what you're trying to say, but I don't find your rational examination to be more of a guesstimate as to how often people are around firearms.
 
The argument is not complex.

The "gun control" side wants, ultimately, to take them away; the "gun owner" side has figured that out and has decided not only to not take any more steps down the slippery slope, but to work on taking a few in the upward direction.

People occasionally will die accidentally due to firearms, or will use them to commit suicide.  Too bad, so sad.  Price of freedom.  Etc.  Firearms are too useful for self- and collective defence (in extremis) to yield any ground on limitations for essentially law-abiding people.
 
ballz said:
I'm not sure what you did, but it looks you compared the number of firearm *owners* to the number of cars, instead of the number of *car owners.* Much like cars, some people own one firearm and some people one 3 or 4.

I was looking at the number of households likely to have guns compared to cars. The key point, since you apparently decided to miss it, is that nearly everyone come into contact with motor vehicles on a fairly basis, while significantly fewer people come into regular contact with guns. For someone who is placed in regular proximity to guns (by choice or otherwise), their risk of death by firearms is significantly higher than most in the population, while the risk varies less for vehicle deaths. Try examining rates of death based on similar levels of exposure, instead of cherry-picking your stats.
 
Michael O'Leary said:
I was looking at the number of households likely to have guns compared to cars. The key point, since you apparently decided to miss it, is that nearly everyone come into contact with motor vehicles on a fairly basis, while significantly fewer people come into regular contact with guns. For someone who is placed in regular proximity to guns (by choice or otherwise), their risk of death by firearms is significantly higher than most in the population, while the risk varies less for vehicle deaths. Try examining rates of death based on similar levels of exposure, instead of cherry-picking your stats.

That's quite a conclusion based on a guess of how often someone is exposed to a firearm. You seem to think my argument was that one car is more dangerous than one gun, but that is not the case, I was speaking in terms of gross numbers on purpose and for a reason.

We put a ton of money into trying to cure "x" disease because it kills so many people. It may not have the highest fatality rate, but that doesn't matter because so many people get it that the gross number of fatalities due to this one thing are staggering. We don't aim any R&D money at a disease with a 100% fatality rate that is so rare it is only seen once every 3 or 4 decades.

Trying to aim legislation at reducing mass shootings is beyond stupid. And if we want to save the most lives, we'd be far better off taking away everyone's freedom to own a car and providing public transportation. But we'd never agree to that. Yet the lefties want to take away our firearms and provide us with defence/protection, and someone that's perfectly fine to them.
 
ballz said:
We don't aim any R&D money at a disease with a 100% fatality rate that is so rare it is only seen once every 3 or 4 decades.

Trying to aim legislation at reducing mass shootings is beyond stupid.
In replying to Mr O'Leary, you are building a strawman from a red herring.

He is right, you did not make good use of your stats.  He made no argument for or against legislation aimed at "reducing mass shootings."  He did show that the statistics that you referenced are actually a better argument against your point when viewed accurately.
 
MCG said:
In replying to Mr O'Leary, you are building a strawman from a red herring.

He is right, you did not make good use of your stats.  He made no argument for or against legislation aimed at "reducing mass shootings."  He did show that the statistics that you referenced are actually a better argument against your point when viewed accurately.

Lumber proposed that things should be regulated based on their characteristics.

I pointed out that cars cause far more fatalities, so therefore by his own proposal, firearms don't need as much regulation.

I am not building a straw man argument, this argument about statistical analysis is a tangent from the original point.

The R&D reference to gross numbers is bringing it back from the tangent and back onto the original point.
 
There are far more firearms owners than governments claim. Prior to the Firearms Act, there were five to seven million firearms owners, who, collectively, possessed fifteen to twenty-five million firearms, based upon multiple means of assessment. The Liberal numbers were based solely upon telephone polls. How many firearms owners would tell an anonymous caller that they owned firearms and how many? Apparently, about half were that stupid. Were they smart and security conscious, they would all have said "none".

Accuracy of estimate was not a concern of the Chretien government; the lower numbers were happily used to show higher compliance rates. In reality, the Firearms Act represents the biggest, yet quietest, act of civil disobedience that this Country has ever known.

Many people killed or injured through misuse of firearms are "in close proximity" once only.

I have owned firearms for forty-three years. None have ever bitten me. The same goes for all of my firearms-owning friends. In comparison, several vehicles that I have owned have been struck by other vehicles, and death could easily have resulted in two of them.

Many people killed or injured through misuse of firearms are gang members offed by other gang members.

Remove the criminal component of firearms-related deaths and re-compare the statistics.

Compare insurance rates for both. This is valuable, because insurance companies base premium rates on actual risk - including likely payouts. Getting it wrong could cost them a lot.

Members of firearms clubs and associations can get $5,000,000.00 worth of liability insurance covering all lawful firearms-related activities for $9.95 annually http://new.nfa.ca/member-area/insurance/.

How much automobile insurance can one get for $9.95?

Who is the biggest risk again?

I'll take the opinion of professional risk-assessors over any comparison of numbers of cars and guns any day.

 
Let's stick with justified, topical and national stuff that pertains to Canadian laws. What the US does means SFA to what we do or where we go.

---staff---
 
Loachman said:
Members of firearms clubs and associations can get $5,000,000.00 worth of liability insurance covering all lawful firearms-related activities for $9.95 annually http://new.nfa.ca/member-area/insurance/.

How much automobile insurance can one get for $9.95?

Who is the biggest risk again?

And I am not going to argue with an insurance company.

Case closed.
 
http://www.assaultweapon.info/

Banning weapons because of a flash hider and plastic adjustable stocks.  Ignorance at its best.
 
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/10/thomas-sowell/the-gun-control-farce/

The 'Gun Control' Farce

By Thomas Sowell

October 13, 2015

President Obama's intrusion into the mourning community of Roseburg, Oregon, in order to promote his political crusade for stronger gun control laws, is part of a pattern of his using various other sites of shooting rampages in the past to promote this long-standing crusade of the political left.

The zealotry of gun control advocates might make some sense if they had any serious evidence that more restrictive gun control laws actually reduce gun crimes. But they seldom even discuss the issue in terms of empirical evidence.

Saving lives is serious business. But claiming to be saving lives and refusing to deal with evidence is a farce. Nor is the Second Amendment or the National Rifle Association the real issue, despite how much the media and the intelligentsia focus on them.

If there is hard evidence that stronger gun control laws actually reduce gun crimes in general or reduce murders in particular, the Second Amendment can be repealed, as other Amendments have been repealed. Constitutional Amendments exist to serve the people. People do not exist to be sacrificed to Constitutional Amendments.

But if hard evidence shows that restrictions on gun ownership lead to more gun crimes, rather than less, then the National Rifle Association’s opposition to those restrictions makes sense, independently of the Second Amendment.

Since this all boils down to a question of hard evidence about plain facts, it is difficult to understand how gun control laws should have become such a heated and long-lasting controversy.

There is a huge amount of statistical evidence, just within the United States, since gun control laws are different in 50 different states and these laws have been changed over time in many of these states. There are mountains of data on what happens under restrictive laws and what happens when restrictions are lifted.

Statistics on murder are among the most widely available statistics, and among the most accurate, since no one ignores a dead body. With so many facts available from so many places and times, why is gun control still a heated issue? The short answer is that most gun control zealots do not even discuss the issue in terms of hard facts.

The zealots act as if they just know - somehow - that bullets will be flying hither and yon if you allow ordinary people to have guns.

Among the many facts this ignores is that gun sales were going up by the millions in late 20th century America, and the murder rate was going down at the same time.

Among the other facts that gun control zealots consistently ignore are data on how many lives are saved each year by a defensive use of guns. This seldom requires actually shooting. Just pointing a loaded gun at an assailant is usually enough to get him to back off, often in some haste.

There have been books and articles based on voluminous statistics, including statistics comparing gun laws and gun crime rates in different countries, such as "Guns and Violence" by Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm of George Mason University. Seldom do these factual studies back up what the gun control zealots are saying.

Why would an ultimately factual question about the consequences of gun control laws divide people along ideological lines? Only if at least one set of people were more devoted to their vision than to the facts.

This shows up when gun control zealots are asked whether whatever new law they propose would have prevented the shooting rampage that they are using as a stage from which to propose a new clampdown on gun ownership. Almost always, the new law being proposed would not have made the slightest difference. That too is part of the farce. A deadly farce.

So is the automatic assertion that whoever engaged in a shooting rampage was a madman. Yet these supposedly crazy shooters are usually rational enough to choose some "gun-free zone" for their murderous attacks. They seem more rational than gun control zealots who keep creating more "gun-free zones."

Gun control zealots are almost always people who are lenient toward criminals, while they are determined to crack down on law-abiding citizens who want to be able to defend themselves and their loved ones.

Part II

The grand illusion of zealots for laws preventing ordinary, law-abiding people from having guns is that "gun control" laws actually control guns. In a country with many millions of guns, not all of them registered, this is a fantasy and a farce.

Guns do not vanish into thin air because there are gun control laws. Guns - whether legal or illegal - can last for centuries. Passing laws against guns may enable zealots to feel good about themselves, but at the cost of other people’s lives.

Why anyone would think that criminals who disobey other laws, including laws against murder, would obey gun control laws is a mystery. A disarmed population makes crime a safer occupation and street violence a safer sport.

The "knockout game" of suddenly throwing a punch to the head of some unsuspecting passer-by would not be nearly so much fun for street hoodlums, if there was a serious risk that the passer-by was carrying a concealed firearm.

Being knocked out in a boxing ring means landing on the canvas. But being knocked out on a street usually means landing on concrete. Victims of the knockout game have ended up in the hospital or in the morgue.

If, instead, just a few of those who play this sick "game" ended up being shot, that would take a lot of the fun out of it for others who are tempted to play the same "game."

Even in places where law-abiding citizens are allowed to own guns, they are seldom allowed to carry concealed weapons - even though concealed weapons protect not only those who carry them, but also protect those who do not, for the hoodlums and criminals have no way of knowing in advance who is armed and who is not.

Another feature of gun control zealotry is that sweeping assumptions are made, and enacted into law, on the basis of sheer ignorance. People who know nothing about guns, and have never fired a shot in their lives, much less lived in high-crime areas, blithely say such things as, "Nobody needs a 30-shot magazine."

Really? If three criminals invaded your home, endangering the lives of you and your loved ones, are you such a sharpshooter that you could take them all out with a clip holding ten bullets? Or a clip with just seven bullets, which is the limit you would be allowed under gun laws in some places?

Do you think that someone who is prepared to use a 30-shot magazine for criminal purposes is going to be deterred by a gun control law? All the wonderful-sounding safeguards in such laws restrict the victims of criminals, rather than the criminals themselves.

That is why such laws cost lives, instead of saving lives.

Are there dangers in a widespread availability of guns? Yes! And one innocent death is one too many. But what makes anyone think that there are no innocent lives lost by disarming law-abiding people while criminals remain armed?

If we are going to be serious, as distinguished from being political, we need to look at hard evidence, instead of charging ahead on the basis of rhetoric. Sweeping assumptions need to be checked against facts. But that is seldom what gun control zealots do.

Some gun control zealots may cherry-pick statistics comparing nations with and without strong gun control laws, but cherry-picking is very different from using statistics to actually test a belief.

Among the cherry-picked statistics is that England has stronger gun control laws than the United States and much lower murder rates. But Mexico, Brazil and Russia all have stronger gun control laws than the United States - and much higher murder rates.

A closer look at the history of gun laws in England tells a very different story than what you get from cherry-picked statistics. The murder rate in New York over the past two centuries has been some multiple of the murder rate in London - and, for most of that time, neither city had strong restrictions on the ownership of guns.

Beginning in 1911, New York had stronger restrictions on gun ownership than London had — and New York still had murder rates that were a multiple of murder rates in London. It was not the laws that made the difference in murder rates. It was the people. That is also true within the United States.

But are gun control zealots interested in truth or in political victory? Or perhaps just moral preening?
 
today the new government reinstated the long form census, just like that-- a snap of a finger, stroke of a pen, and it's done.  It might be a good wager that there will be a gun registry within 6 months and a whole new series of weapons related bans-- conversion kits, upgrades etc. 
 
I guess we will see.

The long gun registry won't be as easy for them as the census was.
 
I'll bet that if they reinstate it, in some form, they'll find that long gun ownership in this country has dropped by the thousands. ;)
 
My guess is that they won't touch this.  I suspect though that they would support any province that would try and create their own though or at least would not impede them.

For now I'll treat this issue the same way I treated the Netflix Tax.
 
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