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The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

Cloud Cover

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Jarnhamar said:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/pol-leg/bill-c71-projet-de-loi/index-eng.htm


Is it me or does it seem like the bill is already passed?

the fact the RCMP chose to put these words in bold suggests something else is going to happen between now and 2021: "The Order will provide protection from criminal prosecution for illegal possession of these firearms until February 28, 2021, while the Government implements measures to address continued possession and use.


 

Fishbone Jones

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Gun owners are already distrustful of the RCMP, their hate for private gun ownership, their overbearing and overblown actions, their illegal activity, smash and grabs, invasion of property and confiscation without warrants.

An absolutely horrendous appreciation by civilians towards the RCMP is about to become even worse. All vestiges of trust in the law and the RCMP is evaporating at a huge rate.

Your about to see comparisons between the RCMP and the gestapo or stazi. And we all know what the population's feeling of them were.

Federal police replacing our legislative body is an abhorent thought to a democratic society. This is more akin to a dictatorship or a communist triumvirate.

And their first step? Steamroll legal, law abiding citizens, make them criminals due to administrative errors and ommissions, invade their medical history, search without warrants, seizure of personal property with no compensation, disregard orders of the government and intentionally kept unauthorized copies of the gun registry after being ordered by the government to destroy it, then using the same to harass law abiding citizens. I shouldn't call it a first step, they've done all this already.

I hope they realize that their iconic stature throughout the world is going to take a massive hit that Walt Disney won't even know how to spin. Bullies and secret police are the future for them. The internet is a wonderful thing and the world will know within minutes when they start operating by their own rules rather than those expected of them.

Meanwhile, not one single thing is being done about the criminals or illegal guns. That takes real work to make a case and catch the bad guy. Easier to target tax paying, legal people sitting home reading the paper that have done nothing wrong except to have a legal hobby and interest in using their property.

They may be giggling and rubbing their palms together now, but they are not looking at the long game and the damage they are about to inflict on themselves.

Not one single good thing will result in letting the RCMP make their own laws, and no democracy should allow it. But we don't have a democracy anymore, do we. :whistle:
 

ModlrMike

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One has to understand the root cause:

    “I came to Ottawa . . . with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers.” –Liberal minister of justice, Allan Rock, 1994.

    “Canada will be one of the first unarmed countries in the world.” –Liberal foreign affairs minister Lloyd Axworthy, 1998.

    “Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda.” — Liberal foreign affairs minister Lloyd Axworthy at a gun control conference, Oslo, Norway, 1998

C-71 is just more unfinished work.
 

Loachman

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Gun Control Explained by Rowan Atkinson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwKThyMmi7I
 

Jarnhamar

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Interesting article over at the gun blog.

Seems like having to actually pass Bill C-71 is just a formality. Looks like a done deal to me.

TheGunBlog.ca — Canada’s federal police agency is so eager to ban guns that it’s ordering owners to register their firearms under a law that doesn’t exist.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which manages firearm licensing, registration and classification, said owners of so-called “Restricted” CZ 858 and SAN Swiss Arms rifles must register the firearms with the police by June 30 to benefit from the delayed confiscation offered by Bill C-71.

“If you have not done so, the registration must be completed by June 30, 2018, in order for your firearm to be eligible for grandfathering,” the RCMP said May 7 on a new web page titled “How does Bill C-71 affect individuals?”

But Bill C-71 doesn’t affect individuals, businesses or anyone else because it isn’t law. There is no June 30 deadline for anything. The date is based on the text of draft legislation presented by the government in March and currently under review by parliament. It may become law, and it may not. For now it’s a draft proposal.



https://thegunblog.ca/2018/05/09/rcmp-is-so-eager-to-ban-guns-its-already-enforcing-bill-c-71/
 

SeaKingTacco

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Well, I for one welcome our new RCMP gun control overlords.

You know, the ones the Liberals are so eager to delegate the role of Parliament to.

::)
 

Jarnhamar

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Pretty weird there's a deadline to be grandfathered for a law that hasn't passed yet.  Thinking of buying one just to get the prohibited grandfather class. Probably won't even shoot it  :facepalm:

Kinda funny- someone else who won't be shooting guns, some retired American porn star.
(she retired from porn because ISIS was threatening to kill her).
I think the real travesty there is that she thinks a Remington 870 is worth $1500 USD.

https://tribunist.com/news/mia-khalifa-calls-police-to-surrender-her-shotgun-it-doesnt-make-me-feel-safe-anymore/?fb_comment_id=1891021197583804_1891072267578697&comment_id=1891072267578697

0520B1.jpg
 

Eaglelord17

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The RCMP should have all the members involved with that page either fired or reprimanded. Unfortunately nothing will be done about it much like High River. Simply put it is a blatant abuse of power and it is fraud. The question is who polices the police?

To be honest I wouldn't bother with the prohibited class. I suspect it will end up like all 12.x classes (except 12.6) where you are unable to use them at all.
 

Jarnhamar

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I thought I read somewhere that CZ victims who are grandfathered  will be allowed to buy, use and sell the cz's and other prohibited guns in that 12 class.

Kinda sounded too good to be true. 
I'd like to trust the RCMP when it comes to firearms but they really seem to be targeting law abiding gun owners. 

It's too bad too because I think most of us legal gun owners really detest criminals and dirt bags. I'd take pride in being able to help th RCMP catch criminals and going out of my way to help and support them but the trust just isn't there.  I don't feel like they make a distinction between me(us) and a gang member. Imagine the kind of support they'd get if they did a 180?
 

Eaglelord17

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I suspect those grandfathered into the new prohibited class would be able to still transfer and sell the CZ and Swiss Arms rifles, however I also suspect like all 12.x classes other than the 12.6 short barrelled handguns you wouldn't be able to shoot them.

In recent years my faith in the police has reached a all time low. Large cases like High River, smaller things like this C-71 page, a friends cousin who was a Bosnia vet getting shot and killed from behind and lying about how it happened (coroners report contradicted the police statement, however they had already been cleared by the provinces investigative unit). Other cases like some local cases where clear nepotism, corruption, and abuse of power came to light and was agreed upon by a judge. Police threating members of the press with lawsuits, police chiefs son abusing a unarmed and cooperative arrested citizen (to the point that citizen almost died in the hospital from his injuries), supervisors watching the abuse and doing nothing about it.

I honestly believe there is a 'old boys club' at work in many police forces and they fail to take the criminals within their ranks to task. Much like how the military can't seem to make hard decisions and do what we are ordered to do (such as more teeth, less tail), the police can't police themselves.
 

Jarnhamar

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I'm not going to be able to drive around town with my AR15 and glock under my seat anymore. That sucks.


Mr. Mark Holland (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Lib.)

“By having clear legislation on the requirement to have an authorization to transport, that sends that clear message that one cannot just drive around with a restricted or prohibited weapon anywhere one wants to go. I think that is a reasonable way of working with law-abiding firearms owners to make sure we do not have thugs who can just throw weapons in the back of their car, and drive anywhere they want to go.”

An hon. member: “What do thugs do?”

Mr. Mark Holland: “What thugs do, is to make sure that they are able to keep weapons in their car and not have to answer any questions. That is what they are going to do. They are going to put the weapons in the car and drive wherever they go. They know that if they are pulled over by a police officer, all they have to do is list one of a million different places to explain where they are going. That is what this legislation changes.”

https://firearmrights.ca/en/mark-holland-calls-gun-owners-thugs-in-parliament/
 

Fishbone Jones

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Holland with his same old tired bullshit.

He just admitted that the grits gun laws are a farce and have no deterrence, whatsoever, to people intent on breaking the law.

They are only there to harass the lawful gun owner.
 

Jarnhamar

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Liberals making Liberal use of the definition of "consulted".

I guess they thought adding names of various people in the firearms community as people they consulted would lend some kind of credibility to Bill C-71.  They they think people wouldn't object to being lied about? Or maybe just expected people not to find out.

https://thegunblog.ca/2018/06/10/bill-c-71-consultations-table-lists-people-who-werent-consulted/

"Lengthy posts and fully quoted articles are posted here. Link to these large posts in the regular boards."
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/128220.0.html

Edit: thanks for the editing MM!
 

Jarnhamar

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RCMP (could be) in Contempt

Commons Speaker Geoff Regan has ruled the RCMP could be found in contempt of Parliament over advice to firearm owners and gun shops on rifle prohibitions under new gun law amendments.
Regan said language the national police force had used assumed the government’s bill to bring in new controls over gun sales had already been approved by the Commons – when it had not yet passed through committee hearings.
Responding to a complaint from Alberta Conservative MP Glen Motz, Regan said the RCMP acted in a “careless manner” by posting advice to gun owners and businesses that made it seem as if Bill C-71 had already become law.
The Commons referred the incident to the Procedure and House Affairs Committee for investigation on a motion from Motz.
In his ruling, Regan dismissed RCMP attempts to duck the issue quickly by changing the wording on its Canadian Firearms Program web site the same day Motz made his complaint in the Commons.
After the Mountie web site adjustments, Liberal MP Mark Holland, the Parliamentary secretary to Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, had urged Regan to dismiss the contempt allegations because “the matter raised was simply one of debate as there was clearly no presumption of anything in the information respecting Bill C-71 on the RCMP website.”


More at link
https://ipolitics.ca/2018/06/20/rcmp-web-posts-on-gun-bill-careless-and-could-be-contempt-of-parliament-speaker/



 

PuckChaser

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With only 18 months left, I can either see 2 things happening:

1. Liberals use majority to ram the legislation through with limited or no debate.
2. Senate holds up the legislation in committee or with amendments so that it dies on the order paper when Parliament is prorogued for the fixed election date in October 2019. Then the Liberals pacify their base that they desperately tried to stop those mean gun owners from murdering people, but it didn't work.

Edit to remove implication that October 2019's election is rigged.  :rofl:
 

Colin Parkinson

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Brihard said:
Their 'familiarity' with weapons does not, to mind, extend to any particular degree of expertise. A small number of CAF members are pretty experienced and proficient with pistols. The rest might occasionally get to play with them but fall well short of anything I would want to see for someone carrying.

Aside from that, as frequently as I've seen CAF members saying really outlandish stuff on police use of force discussions, I have zero faith that CAF training or mindset appropriately equips people to be carrying firearms on civvy street. Honestly, soldiers and vets are some of the worst armchair quarterbacks for what should be done in use of force situations. There's quite a strong hubris from soldiers who believe that carrying a rifle in training or combat operations carries across perfectly or even adequately for being armed for daily carry for self/public defense. Many are very out to lunch. All that said- military training/experience should not be a factor that is at all in play in determining whether someone should or should not be permitted to carry a firearm in public in Canada.

There's not a chance we are going to see private open or concealed carry of firearms expanded generally in Canada, and I'm fine with that. There's no significant political appetite here, and few of us want to see us move along the trajectory to what we see south of the border. Just no thanks.

CCW was more common here, without a wild west happening. There are quite a few people , myself included that would like to see a return to historical levels or higher. CCW permit carriers in the US have a incredibly low indictment rate, they are not the problem. For a civilian CCW, the use of deadly force is much more cut and dried, then for a police officer who has several levels of lethal and non-lethal force to use and a much wider level of variables to consider.
 

RocketRichard

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Colin P said:
CCW was more common here, without a wild west happening. There are quite a few people , myself included that would like to see a return to historical levels or higher. CCW permit carriers in the US have a incredibly low indictment rate, they are not the problem. For a civilian CCW, the use of deadly force is much more cut and dried, then for a police officer who has several levels of lethal and non-lethal force to use and a much wider level of variables to consider.
Pretty sure there is little to no appetite for ccw permit carrier expansion in Canada. Our laws around handguns are sound. If and when I get a restricted permit to go with my non restricted permit it will be a PIA to transport a pistol but I will do it properly IOT    to keep  sidearms out of criminals’ hands.


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Colin Parkinson

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There is a strong effort to push for a more open policy on CCW here, known as ATC for self defense. The CFO's won't even release the training standard as they know that someone will design a course to meet it and that would remove another obstacle to getting them.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1411270/applications-to-carry-handguns-skyrocket-in-b-c-alberta/
 
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