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SUBMISS Argentine Navy

British territorial waters is 12 nautical miles around the Falklands, with the economic exclusive zone, which otherwise remains international waters, extending to 200 nautical miles.

They were not "poking around" the Falklands.

That map is deceiving. You need to use a globe, a polyconic or a zenith equidistant projection chart. If you do so, you will note that the great circle route (the most direct route between two points on the earth's surface) between the Tierra del Fuego and Mar del Plata passes right off (almost touches) the Falkland Islands. This is what explains the little dip where they strayed from that direct route to avoid British territorial waters. On the map provided, to figure the great circle route, you have to imagine a perfect arc of a circle that would go from Tierra del Fuego to Mar del Plata just touching the closest point of the Falkland Islands.

The other deceiving aspect of the chart is that if you use the proper projection chart, you will see that the boat never strays from being over the continental shelf, even if they do get close to its edge North of the Falklands. But they never get over "deep" ocean as the BBC map would seem to indicate.
 
Argentina says sound detected in search for missing submarine is consistent with non-nuclear explosion - Travis Fedschun - Fox News


Video report at link.

Argentina: Explosion sound detected in submarine search
Argentine officials share update as the search continues for missing sailors.[/i]

A sound detected in the search for a missing submarine with 44 crew members aboard is consistent with a non-nuclear explosion, officials in Argentina said Thursday.

Navy spokesman Enrique Balbi said the relatives of the crew have been informed and that the search will continue until there is full certainty about the fate of the ARA San Juan.

The disclosure was made as more help arrived in a multinational search as concern grew that the vessel's oxygen supply could soon start to run out.

Britain's Ministry of Defense sent a special helicopter with emergency life support pods to join the hunt that includes planes and ships from a dozen nations.

Balbi said Wednesday that searchers were returning to a previously scanned part of the ocean after determining that a previously unnoticed "hydro-acoustic anomaly" was detected Nov. 15, just hours after the final contact with the ARA San Juan.

In this Tuesday, Nov. 21, 2017 photo released by the Argentine Navy on Nov. 22, members of the Argentine Air Force search for a missing submarine in the South Atlantic near Argentina's coast. Argentine families of 44 crew members aboard a submarine that has been lost in the South Atlantic for seven days are growing increasingly distressed as experts say the crew might be reaching a critical period of low oxygen on Wednesday. (Argentine Navy via AP)

He said Argentine navy ships as well as a U.S. P-8 Poseidon aircraft and a Brazilian air force plane would return to the area to check out the sound, which originated about 30 miles north of the submarine's last registered position.

U.S. Navy Lt. Lily Hinz later said the unusual sound detected underwater could not be attributed to marine life or naturally occurring noise in the ocean.

The ARA San Juan disappeared Wednesday in the icy waters of the South Atlantic.Video

"It was not a whale, and it is not a regularly occurring sound," Hinz said.

A U.S. Navy plane detected an object Wednesday near the area the submarine sent its last signal during a search flight over the South Atlantic, a witness told Reuters after traveling on board the plane.

The crew emphasized that the object could not be identified, and it was not known if it was related to the ARA San Juan, the news agency reported.

The San Juan, a German-built diesel-electric sub, went missing as it was sailing from the extreme southern port of Ushuaia to the city of Mar del Plata, about 250 miles southeast of Buenos Aires.

Experts worry that oxygen for the crew would last only seven to 10 days if the sub was intact but submerged. Authorities do not know if the sub rose to the surface to replenish its oxygen supply and charge batteries, however.

More than a dozen airplanes and ships are participating in the multinational search despite stormy weather that has caused waves of more than 20 feet. Search teams are combing an area of some 185,000 square miles, which is roughly the size of Spain.

The U.S. government has sent two P-8 Poseidons, a naval research ship, a submarine rescue chamber and sonar-equipped underwater vehicles. U.S. Navy sailors from the San Diego-based Undersea Rescue Command are also helping with the search.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
British territorial waters is 12 nautical miles around the Falklands, with the economic exclusive zone, which otherwise remains international waters, extending to 200 nautical miles.

They were not "poking around" the Falklands.

That map is deceiving. You need to use a globe, a polyconic or a zenith equidistant projection chart. If you do so, you will note that the great circle route (the most direct route between two points on the earth's surface) between the Tierra del Fuego and Mar del Plata passes right off (almost touches) the Falkland Islands. This is what explains the little dip where they strayed from that direct route to avoid British territorial waters. On the map provided, to figure the great circle route, you have to imagine a perfect arc of a circle that would go from Tierra del Fuego to Mar del Plata just touching the closest point of the Falkland Islands.

The other deceiving aspect of the chart is that if you use the proper projection chart, you will see that the boat never strays from being over the continental shelf, even if they do get close to its edge North of the Falklands. But they never get over "deep" ocean as the BBC map would seem to indicate.

Worth getting out of bed this morning - learned something new  :nod:.

MM
 
A gentleman in the cubicle behind me is a retired Submariner.  He was apparently being interviewed on radio this AM about what may or may not have happened.  He said it "might" have been a battery explosion that was heard.  If that was indeed the case, they would have lost at least one compartment if not more.  That would make it very difficult for the boat to surface if not impossible and that there could have been some survivors if she went to the bottom and not hit crush depth.  The atmosphere there now would be very poisonous and it doesn't look at all hopeful for the crew.  If the beacon was in the compartment where the something happened, it would be impossible for crew to launch the buoy and to his recollection that type only carries one.  He did say that if a boat does go to crush depth, the end is swift with the hull collapsing from both ends towards the middle at once, like stomping on a pop can.  He also said that even if they were in shallow enough water to egress, the conditions on top would be challenging to survive for this length of time.

Understandably, the family members of the crew were not happy with the announcement (a week late) of hearing what appears to be an explosion.  Those poor people.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5111129/Has-missing-submarine-located-Navy-spots-object.html
 
You'd have thought that SOSUS (or what passes for it now) would have picked up something...or am I smoking crack?

MM
 
Well, you are smoking something MM.

SOSUS or whatever the current system's name is, is a NATO system for the North Atlantic. It has no station from the Southern Atlantic feeding into it. I don't believe that Argentina or the UK operate any system similar to that in that area of the South Atlantic. However, there may be (and probably are) many local systems of  hydrophones belonging to military organizations or research establishments that would record, but not necessarily be permanently monitored, sound in the general area but in a more localized area. That data is probably what the Argentinian Navy has gotten access to and has now started to review for any indication and found the ominous sound, as reported on TV, consistent with an implosion.

By the way, JJT's friend is quite correct, in a cold crush event, the end is mercifully swift for submariners. In a lack of oxygen case, the end is painless, as you pass out before death, but the mental anguish of the long lead time is unimaginable.
 
medicineman said:
You'd have thought that SOSUS (or what passes for it now) would have picked up something...or am I smoking crack?

MM

It would appear to have done so, but uncertain when such correlated information was passed to the Argentine Navy.

Retroactively, the acoustic event signature correlated against the last known transmission indicating a major malfunction, certainly doesn't bode well, and one can only imagine how much the families would have liked to have been provided more detailed information sooner.

A very sad situation indeed.

G2G
 
Well Argentina just confirmed the death of the 44 sailors on board.

Heartbreaking news. RIP .

The Argentine navy confirms the death of the 44 crew members of the ARA San Juan

The worst of the scenarios was confirmed early in the morning by the Argentine navy, when it brought together the family members of the crew to tell them that the sad message of the death of the 44 crewmembers of the submarine ARA San Juan had disappeared last week.

The Argentinian navy reported yesterday that it was analyzing a 'hydroacoustic anomaly' that was detected a week ago in the Atlantic where the last known position of the submarine ARA San Juan was remedied, a sound almost three hours after the last communication with the ship .

Captain Enrique Balbi told the media at the headquarters of the navy in Buenos Aires that a warning was received responding to a 'hydroacoustic anomaly' observed at the last known position of the submarine last Wednesday in the Gulf Gulf San Jorge, 432 kilometers off the coast of Argentine Patagonia.

"The United States - one of the 13 countries that work together to search for submersible pumps - asked for (data) different bodies that focus on collecting different hydroacoustic events around the world," he added.

After collecting all information and conducting a thorough centralized analysis in the United States, that official indication was received corresponding to Wednesday, November 15 in the morning, coinciding with the area of ​​the last known position of the submarine.

"This would be about 30 miles north of that position, on the way to Mar del Plata," the Buenos Aires city to which the ship left from the southern port of Ushuaia and where it would have arrived between Sunday and Monday.

The hydroacoustic anomaly and the US Navy report were reviewed in Argentina and sent to other international organizations that confirmed that it was an underwater explosion in the area where the submarine would be located.

The Navy gathered the family members and handed over the terrible news. The impact on the family members of the crew was terrible. Many of them have left the meeting and complain about the management of the situation by the government and the Argentine navy.

The relatives wonder how it is possible that they were kept in suspense for a week by mobilizing the operation if the data to locate the San Juan were available from the same day the disaster took place.

On the other hand, the family members continue to emphasize that the crew was condemned from the moment the submarine went to sea because of the poor state of maintenance it was in.

Argentina is one of the countries in Latin America that has invested least in defense since the time of 'Kirschnerism' that led the armed forces to a state of neglect that is now being paid.

However, little has been revealed about how the Argentine Navy confirmed the death of the sailors. It is known that the ship Cabo de Hornos of the Chilean navy and the Skandi Patagonia, a ship of the French oil company Total with an underwater rescue squadron of the US Navy, were in the vicinity of the accident.

The latest information indicates that the destruction of the submarine may be due to the explosion of one of its batteries due to a possible short circuit.

Rest in peace the brave companions of the sea.

[translated via google translate]

Source: http://www.diariodenautica.com/ @ Article [Spanish]

 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
By the way, JJT's friend is quite correct, in a cold crush event, the end is mercifully swift for submariners. In a lack of oxygen case, the end is painless, as you pass out before death, but the mental anguish of the long lead time is unimaginable.

Was an undersea/diving med dude before getting out and was supposed to go to VIC as the doc - yes, definitely want the boat to crumple vice hanging out hoping for rescue or escape consideration.  Depending on escape depth, there is a good chance of catastrophic decompression from a rapid ascent...a friend of mine used to joke that the poopy suits were there to ensure there was a body for the family.  Last SUBSAREX/ESCAPEX I did, I want to say more than half the exercise causalties we picked up went through my chamber for damage control recompression - we were also experimenting with how many litter cases we could get into the 6 man portable with an attendant...got really tight in there and a bit hard on the back maneuvering folks in/out (and hopefully not squishing any of them).  The term "6 man" really should read "6 very small men"...

Was saying that regardless, I don't see this ending well...as I posted, the Argentine Navy has confirmed it.  RIP submariners.

MM
 
A dark day indeed. Many a silent drink will be drunk in submarines around the world tonight.

The silent service even honours its dead in silence.

Rest in the depth. May lord Neptune hosts you at his great banquet.

And condolences to all the families of the departed.  :salute:
 
Very saddened to see this come to pass.  We're all, as sailors, at the mercy of the sea regardless of which nation we serve.  I hate it when she takes some of us as it could be any one of us if our number comes up.  I hope it was swift.  My thoughts are with their families today.  :salute:
 
A picture gallery of the crew.One thing that strikes me is the age of the sailors,which seems that they were older men.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42113257
 
From todays TO Star:

They sent a piece of crap to sail,” said Itati Leguizamon, wife of submarine crew member German Suarez. “They inaugurated a submarine with a coat of paint and a flag in 2014, but without any equipment inside. The navy is to blame for its 15 years of abandonment.”
The German-built diesel-electric TR-1700 class submarine was commissioned in 1985 and was most recently refitted in 2014.

Balbi defended the Argentine Navy, saying that “with respect to the maintenance and state of our naval and air units, no unit ever leaves port or takes off if it isn’t in operating conditions to navigate or fly with total security.”
The German-built diesel-electric TR-1700 class submarine was commissioned in 1985 and was most recently refitted in 2014.

During the $12 million retrofitting, the vessel was cut in half and had its engines and batteries replaced. Experts say that refits can be difficult because they involve integrating systems produced by different manufacturers and even the smallest mistake during the cutting phase of the operation can put the safety of the ship and the crew at risk.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/11/23/unusual-noise-in-ocean-could-give-clue-to-missing-argentine-submarines-location-officials.html
 
tomahawk6 said:
A picture gallery of the crew.One thing that strikes me is the age of the sailors,which seems that they were older men.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42113257

I think that if you took a look at RCN/RN/RAN/RNZN sub (and surface fleet) crews, you'll find they are in general older than USN ones.  I definitely noticed it when working with Americans.
 
Dimsum said:
I think that if you took a look at RCN/RN/RAN/RNZN sub (and surface fleet) crews, you'll find they are in general older than USN ones.  I definitely noticed it when working with Americans.

Nah they just look older due to stress of sailing in smaller more cramped subs.  Not the pleasure cruisers the US operate.  ;D
 
How is that possible ? To have water come through the snorkel. Second once you have that issue why not surface despite the stormy sea and return to base ?
 
I didn't sail on subs, but I have a few friends who did.  My understanding is that the sub doesn't completely surface to snorkel; it's entirely submerged and only the snort mast extends from the water.  Apparently there is a valve on the snort mast that normally keeps seawater from coming in, but my friends have mentioned that keeping the sub depth constant is somewhat of an art, and if the sub goes ever slightly too deep and water hits the valve, it will slam shut - causing distress to the crew because the diesel engine then tries to pull air from inside the sub, and makes your ears hurt like hell.  Extrapolating from what they've told me, I guess if that valve didn't work properly, it would allow water to get into the snort mast.

My understanding is that submarines while on the surface are not particularly stable in rough weather, and they would avoid this if possible.
 
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