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Study on training injuries reveals patterns among recruits and officer cadets

Oldgateboatdriver

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I have no doubt that fitness and healthy lifestyle should form part of our basic training, as much as it ought to be taught in High School across the country, but mostly is not. And that is not "element" specific: it applies to all three elements just the same.

This said, there is no denying that the Army, as a rule, requires a higher level of strength and endurance than the other two elements and that as a result, physical fitness (including strength training) forms a greater proportion of their use of time. Those are not valid reasons for splitting basic into elements, however.

Nevertheless, I do agree that we are at a point where basic should be re-split from "training command" and back to each element, for the following reasons:

1- at least two "elements" feel that before they can employ personnel coming out of basic, they have to be taught further basic knowledge required of the element. I say at least two because I don't know if the RCAF has the equivalent of the Army's BMQ-L or the RCN's NETP. Would it no be easier for these two elements to simply incorporate the BMQ and their own first phase into a single whole taught in one - slightly longer -shot?

2- Splitting the courses would make it possible to carry out such courses at "elemental" bases - the RCN in Esquimalt and the Army at one or two Army bases around, the RCAF perhaps at Trenton? This way, with instructors readily available without a need for postings involving moving, a larger number of recruits could probably be trained faster - and training scaled up or down easily as the need arises without the bottleneck that is St-Jean when increases in numbers are required quickly.

3- Finally, with the current concept of the Army, RCN and RCAF acting as the official Force Generators in their respective element, what is the point of making them responsible for all of a member's training, except the very first step? Shouldn't they have control over the totality of the training of the personnel under their element?
 

PMedMoe

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garb811 said:
Are you actually implying that we should have kept a support trade that had no war-fighting role, at all?  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

And our musicians do....what?  Now, I'm not referring to some Infanteer or Construction Engineer who also happens to play bagpipes; I'm talking about someone in the CF whose trade is Musician.

At the very least, the PERIs could have done the welfare/morale positions on tour without us having to bring in PSP.
 

garb811

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PMedMoe said:
And our musicians do....what?  Now, I'm not referring to some Infanteer or Construction Engineer who also happens to play bagpipes; I'm talking about someone in the CF whose trade is Musician.

At the very least, the PERIs could have done the welfare/morale positions on tour without us having to bring in PSP.
:eek:ff topic: I'm not really sure how you're extrapolating that I'm somehow advocating that retaining musicians was a sound choice; it wasn't a one or the other proposition anyway.
 

PMedMoe

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garb811 said:
:eek:ff topic: I'm not really sure how you're extrapolating that I'm somehow advocating that retaining musicians was a sound choice; it wasn't a one or the other proposition anyway.

K.  My bad. 
 

dimsum

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PuckChaser said:
Yeah, the Army breaks people physically. The RCAF breaks people financially (Cold Lake) and the RCN breaks people mentally (constant deployments if you're sea fit). Pick your poison. :facepalm:

Sadly, Cold Lake is but one of the places that you might get broken financially.  I'm not sure how Pte/Cpls fresh out of course afford it in Comox (Qs are on a waiting list and no PLD) or Victoria.

But I digress.
 

Navy_Pete

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
I have no doubt that fitness and healthy lifestyle should form part of our basic training, as much as it ought to be taught in High School across the country, but mostly is not. And that is not "element" specific: it applies to all three elements just the same.

This said, there is no denying that the Army, as a rule, requires a higher level of strength and endurance than the other two elements and that as a result, physical fitness (including strength training) forms a greater proportion of their use of time. Those are not valid reasons for splitting basic into elements, however.

Nevertheless, I do agree that we are at a point where basic should be re-split from "training command" and back to each element, for the following reasons:

1- at least two "elements" feel that before they can employ personnel coming out of basic, they have to be taught further basic knowledge required of the element. I say at least two because I don't know if the RCAF has the equivalent of the Army's BMQ-L or the RCN's NETP. Would it no be easier for these two elements to simply incorporate the BMQ and their own first phase into a single whole taught in one - slightly longer -shot?

2- Splitting the courses would make it possible to carry out such courses at "elemental" bases - the RCN in Esquimalt and the Army at one or two Army bases around, the RCAF perhaps at Trenton? This way, with instructors readily available without a need for postings involving moving, a larger number of recruits could probably be trained faster - and training scaled up or down easily as the need arises without the bottleneck that is St-Jean when increases in numbers are required quickly.

3- Finally, with the current concept of the Army, RCN and RCAF acting as the official Force Generators in their respective element, what is the point of making them responsible for all of a member's training, except the very first step? Shouldn't they have control over the totality of the training of the personnel under their element?

They did a bit of it when I went through basic about 14 years ago, but would be nice if there was a lot more dedicated time in learning how to properly do some basic weight training exercises and give everyone enough of a basis that they can start safely self learning.  As a scrawny guy that's built to run, picking up the dumbbells was always kind of intimidating and was worried about hurting myself, and that didn't really change until got some got some good gymrat partners and some pointers from the PSP staff. Otherwise I would default to running, sit ups etc, which is okay, but doesn't really build a complete package.

Wrt to point 3, doing BMQ all together forces you to start out thinking as the CAF as an single force (even if there is always elemental rivalries). Made friends in all three services, so didn't really care when the Navy/AF support budgets fell off during Afghanistan as it was redirected to help keep friends safe.  Even understanding that intellectually, no real substitute for a human face on the other end.  Keep running into folks now, so it's helpful to build that network early and has helped out a bunch of times. Also, we always struggle to staff the Navy billets at CFLRS, so naive to think we'd be able to incorporate all of BMQ into the NETP training and effectively staff the courses without further impacts to the fleet.

One thing other Navies do is have instructor positions being high profile, coveted positions reserve for the best and brightest.  They are a big feather in the cap for promotion, and really highlights the importance of good training by actively selecting the instructors to get the best teachers in place.

I don't think that's something we do well (or at all) and lots of the positions are just another posting (or a dumping ground for problem children). Doesn't need to be the best techs or whatever, but we don't always do a good job of making sure that the people that have the passion for training others end up in the right spots (or worse, bounce those natural mentors from ship to ship because they 'are too good to be wasted at the school').  At least on the NCM side some of that basic instructional techniques incorporated into PMQ etc, but on the officer side it's trial by fire, with a training plan for some instructional technique courses that normally ensures you get it done in time to be posted.
 

Quirky

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PuckChaser said:
Maybe instead of splitting the services back up, we put an emphasis back on fitness and healthy lifestyle?

Still too many obese dinosaur SNCOs who think going to the base fitness center during work hours is AWOL. In the AF, operations always, always take precedence over health and fitness. I shouldn’t have to fight tooth and nail to give my pers time to go workout during the day if it doesn’t impact ops.
 

Journeyman

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PMedMoe said:
And our musicians do....what? 
Well historically, Commonwealth Army musicians tended to also be stretcher-bearers.

/history geek  ;)
 

Haggis

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Quirky said:
Still too many obese dinosaur SNCOs who think going to the base fitness center during work hours is AWOL.
The other thing that used to irritate the crap out of me when I worked at NDHQ was those people who would track me down at the NDHQ gym and hold an impromptu "meeting" with me at the squat rack. (In some cases that was the only time they ever darkened the door of the gym except for fitness testing.) That's one reason why I opted to spend a bit of my own money to go to a non-DND gym.
 

PMedMoe

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Journeyman said:
Well historically, Commonwealth Army musicians tended to also be stretcher-bearers.

/history geek  ;)

That I knew.  Pretty sure you don't need any special training to carry a stretcher.  ;)
 

Journeyman

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PMedMoe said:
Pretty sure you don't need any special training to carry a stretcher.  ;)
To bring the discussion full circle..... fitness.  ;D
 

daftandbarmy

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PMedMoe said:
That I knew.  Pretty sure you don't need any special training to carry a stretcher.  ;)

However, there's a reason that the PARAs, and others, include a 'stretcher race' of some kind in their selection programs. Probably one of the hardest events I've ever done!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzC-t7kpKWw

 

PMedMoe

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daftandbarmy said:
However, there's a reason that the PARAs, and others, include a 'stretcher race' of some kind in their selection programs. Probably one of the hardest events I've ever done!

One year, in Ottawa, after the 13km rucksack march, instead of the fireman's carry, we did a stretcher carry.  No, not easy.  Have done it in the field too, while schlepping webbing, med bag and weapons....even more difficult.  :(
 

Blackadder1916

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PMedMoe said:
That I knew.  Pretty sure you don't need any special training to carry a stretcher.  ;)

You would think so, until . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZMtWIkJLyQ

 

medicineman

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Journeyman said:
Well historically, Commonwealth Army musicians tended to also be stretcher-bearers.

/history geek  ;)

So were the PERI's  :nod:

MM
 

PuckChaser

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I feel like the PERIs would be far better at doing that then someone who plays jazz flute in a uniform.
 

mariomike

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PMedMoe said:
Pretty sure you don't need any special training to carry a stretcher.  ;)

Blackadder1916 said:
You would think so, until . . .

What Blackadder1916 said,
https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/patient-handling/video/323718187-Mother-Jugs-Speed-stretcher-scene/
"What took you so long?"  :)

 

Old Sweat

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PMedMoe said:
That I knew.  Pretty sure you don't need any special training to carry a stretcher.  ;)

Then why did the army teach me how to carry a casualty on a stretcher on recruit training in the RCA Depot back in 1958?
 

PMedMoe

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Old Sweat said:
Then why did the army teach me how to carry a casualty on a stretcher on recruit training in the RCA Depot back in 1958?

:dunno:
 

Underway

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PMedMoe said:
One year, in Ottawa, after the 13km rucksack march, instead of the fireman's carry, we did a stretcher carry.  No, not easy.  Have done it in the field too, while schlepping webbing, med bag and weapons....even more difficult.  :(

I agree. My section PT before Afghanistan included stretcher carry.  Carrying your buddy with all their gear, and your gear over rough terrain is not easy.  I actually changed my workouts to add more free weights so that my grip endurance improved.  Grip strength was fine, but after 5 min of hanging onto that stretcher.... ouch
 
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