Standalone M203

[PhilB]

Hey guys, so here is a question for all of you weapons experts and machinists. The concept of a standalone M203 has been discussed before and there are definitely positives. Personally I would much rather carry a separate grenade launcher then have an ungainly primary weapon. Now, not getting into legality or "will they actually do it" do you think this concept is possible:

I found a site online called www.40mm.com very interesting, they have what seems like a very simple standalone platform for the M203. The actually 203 attaches to the platform in some method which I am not familiar with. I am wondering if it would be possible to modify/have something like this built. Here are some pictures

From looking at the pictures it does not seem like it would be that hard to have machined. I was thinking if the platform basically had a slip ring and a delta ring incorporated into it our 203 could just be attached onto it as if it was a rifle? Let me know what you guys think.

 

[aesop081]

The concept of a standalone M203 has been discussed before

Do you mean "concept" as something new ?

http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl06-e.htm

Sounds like you want to go full-circle back to the 60s

 

[Kendrick]

The question I'd have here is, why a "stand alone" M203 when you can have something like this:

http://forums.army.ca/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=24264

Beats the purpose doesn't it?

 

[PhilB]

Aviator -  yes something new, as it is not the M79, close but not the same. Same concept, different weapon, smaller profile.

Kendrick - although an MGL like that would be great I don't think it is very likely that Canada will adopt something like this.

What I am talking about is a piece of kit that will interface with our current M203, as is, unchanged, that will increase the utility of it.

I think that a standalone M203 system is better than a weapon mounted system for several reasons;

1) It allows the C7/C8 to be fired more accurately (Firing the C7/C8 with 203 sucks! Or maybe its just me, but I have found a very noticeable drop in my accuracy with the primary when an M203 is attached.)

2) It allows the M203 to be fired more accurately. Again, maybe just me, but I find firing the 203 somewhat awkward ( maybe its my stumpy arms ). While the A2/C8 is a huge improvement over the C7A1 I think a standalone unit like this, with a real pistol grip and non offset sights would increase the accuracy of the launcher.

3) Wpn is easily switched from KIA/WIA grenadier to another troop. In theater casualties are now a reality. If a grenadier goes down someone now has either 2 rifles plus the 203 or they have to leave their own rifle behind and use the rifle with the 203 on it. In the case of carrying both rifles extremely awkward, in the case of adopting the downed man's weapon you are now using a weapon that is not zeroed for you. If the grenadier was utilizing a standalone system, such as I have shown, it would be much simpler to grab the standalone launcher and a bandoleer of bombs.

Just to clarify, I am not trying to open a discussion about whether the army as a whole should adopt a system like mentioned above, but rather the feasibility of using and manufacturing a system for individual purchase. (I know if I am deployed as a 203 gunner I would buy something like this.) Also, I understand and have heard all of the arguments about modified weapons, non issue weapons parts, etc etc ad nausea. So lets just assume individual CoC would allow something like this and go from there. Thanks

 

[Kirkhill]

This system was posted by Tomahawk6 before Christmas PhilB.  Watch towards the end of the video.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52784/post-474459.html#msg474459

SCAR is the new modular rifle selected by the Special Operations Command. Below is a video demonstration.

http://mfile.akamai.com/21772/wmv/gannett.download.akamai.com/21772//streaming/wmv/101806scar.asx

Cheers

 

[PhilB]

Thanks Kirkhill, I have seen the SCAR and it looks awesome.

But again, I am trying to make something that can be used with our M203

 

[aesop081]

Phil, i read the reasons you posted but i have to wonder, there must be a reason why the americans went from the M79 to the M16/M203 combination, i am just wondering if you are just trying to reinvent the wheel here.......

 

[vonGarvin]

I think they went from M79 to M16/M203 combo so that their Grenade Launchers (the soldiers with Grenade Launchers, I hesitate to call them "grenadiers") so that they could have rifles for the close in fight, when needed.

 

[PhilB]

I think that they went to the M203 because the M79 was large enough that it was the only weapon for a soldier. By transitioning to the M203 they increase the fire power of their squad. That being said, the Americans, at least USSOCOM, are going back to the capability of having a standalone launcher (See Kirkhill's post above).

 

[aesop081]

I think that they went to the M203 because the M79 was large enough that it was the only weapon for a soldier. By transitioning to the M203 they increase the fire power of their squad. That being said, the Americans, at least USSOCOM, are going back to the capability of having a standalone launcher (See Kirkhill's post above).

Then my question would be : Is this something that the average infatryman needs ?

 

[PhilB]

I think so, particularly in theater. I think, for the reasons I stated above, it make more sense then the 203 attached to the weapon. Realistically in theater you are almost always carrying something else other than your primary weapon anyways, whether it be a pistol, a 203, or a shotgun. Having the 203 separate from the primary like in the case of the shotgun would not be that far a stretch of the imagination. It could be very practical if you utilized a breachers sling and a weapons catch. That being said, I don't think the army would ever provide these for troops, however as I said earlier, I would purchase something like this if I was being deployed as a 203 grenadier.

 

[aesop081]

I would purchase something like this if I was being deployed as a 203 grenadier.

And i can just imagine what you CoC will have to say about it too....

 

[PhilB]

haha, like I said above, this is hypothetical at this point. I am just wondering from those with experience with Ar's and the machinists in the house, if it would be possible to make something like this.

As far as CoC goes it depends on the unit, and the situation. But I know what you are saying

 

[KevinB]

The CF M203A1 has a POS mount system --- with a standalone you still will have the 1.5" of useless drop and extra weight over a normal M203.

KAC has a stand alone for the M203, and Hk has one for the AG/C launcher


  KAC's (the Hk pic I have I cant release)

I've got an op in a few minutes but I will go into a bit more detail as why I think the CF Infanteer does not need a stand alone -- while other elelments may prefer it...

 

[1feral1]

I think that they went to the M203 because the M79 was large enough that it was the only weapon for a soldier. By transitioning to the M203 they increase the fire power of their squad. That being said, the Americans, at least USSOCOM, are going back to the capability of having a standalone launcher (See Kirkhill's post above).

I have used the M79 here, and it works well. Its robust, handles the desert well, its accurate (it really is) and uppermost, its combat proven, with well over 40yrs of loyal service in many theatres of operations over the years. Using the idiot proof sights (I think they are, noting to smash really, and no batts to change), with your estimation of range, etc, even at ranges 300m +, she is pretty much right on target, and the 40mm HEDP 'gold tipped' ammo is an excellent addition to one's daily carriage.

Size wise, I would say that the M79 is not much bigger than what is offered  now, but as a stand-alone, you still have to carry two weapons, don't you.

I won't get into reason why the Wombat Gun is still used, but its common knowledge that the ADF has F88's with an M203 fitted underneath, using a reflex sight.

I can see mulitple reasons to have both in a stand-alone GLA, and one affixed under a rifle.

My 2 cents,

Wes

 

[Jungle]

Colt Canada is also offering a GL that is standalone-capable

http://www.diemaco.com/eagle-page.htm

 

[KevinB]

Stand Alone's are fine for guys using it for the odd breach tool or similar -- but its not a great method for carrying around in the green role.  A second long arm is bound to get dragged thru the mud and caught up on things -- and when one is stowed its not available -- often when you need it to be.

 

[PhilB]

I see what you are saying, but with the folded butt it seems that the standalone would be quite small, definitely at least the same size as a shotgun if not smaller. My experience with the 203 has been whether on or off the weapon it is a magnet for sand and other shit.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Stand Alone's are fine for guys using it for the odd breach tool or similar -- but its not a great method for carrying around in the green role.  A second long arm is bound to get dragged thru the mud and caught up on things -- and when one is stowed its not available -- often when you need it to be.

Amen to that one. I remember a slightly embarrassing incident where a patrol of ours ND'd an M79 bullet through a hotel window when the trigger was pulled by a branch on the hedge that the grenadier was pushing through (it was slung over his back) at the time. After breaking the window about 4 ft away, it hit a heavy curtain before the 9ft arming range, dropped to the floor, and was picked up by a German tourist who was kind enough to hand it back out the broken window to the patrol commander. For some reason an SOP was soon issued after that forbidding the carriage of loaded M79s.

I found that the chief advantage of the M79 was greater accuracy, rate of fire, and the ability to share the role of M79 gunner around. It's pretty sturdy, works well in adverse conditions, and was not often U/S. We always kept one on the sentry position and at key sangars as well. It's a particularly menacing little monster too, so you can scare the cr*p out of groups of stroppy locals just by pointing the 40mm business end at them. Makes them remember that they left the bath running at home or something...

 

[KevinB]

Phil -- I also feel that anyone using a Shotgun in the green role needs their head examined...  Shotguns are fine for less lethal or breaching, but unless your expecting that sort of activity they are not worth the weight -- and for those uses a 12" Remington 870 with pistol grip is a better breacher tool - then I agree it makes a good stand alone -- for the same reason above that some people you've likely seen use the Hk AG/C as a StandAlone.