Shaving while off duty

[jaysfan17]

Based on the title of the post this will be a shaving question. Specifically geared towards those who cannot grow a proper beard in accordance to the standards of the new beard policy.

What I’ve noticed at my reserve unit (specifically the clerks) is if you’re off duty or on leave and need to go to the orderly room to do some admin they want you to be clean shaven and properly dressed. I understand them not wanting any innappropiate clothing, but why does it matter if someone is clean shaven. They’re not in uniform hence off duty. Is there a rule I’m missing?

 

[coyote489]

I know it won’t answer your question necessarily but I’ve been turned around at the door of the OR for having a leave beard. Don’t make no sense to me really. But now with the new policy I can’t see them being allowed to do that. I could be wrong but that would not make sense at all if the new policy allows beards. But then again this is the military we’re talking about....

 

[BDTyre]

I'm not aware of any policy. I've shown up at the BOR more than once unshaven and in jeans and a t-shirt...I've never been turned away.

 

[jaysfan17]

It’s weird. One of my friends was turned away by the OR a couple months ago for having a beard. Just yesterday I was given a talking too about my beard when I went in to do some admin.

Last summer I was in the OR and got caught in the middle of someone getting jacked up and strolled in with flip flops and a beard and the angry Sgt didn’t say anything to me in regards to my appearance. I guess things are changing now.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Are they calling you in to do admin while you are on leave?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

We are dealing with a reservist, so unless he/she is on a class B or C contract, you can't really talk in terms of duty/leave or on duty/off duty dichotomies.

When on DND property the person is definitely subject to the Code of service discipline, but can only be said to be on duty if coming in to train or work and signs a pay sheet for it. At other time, the member is neither off duty nor on leave, but merely a civilian, so to speak.

Reserve units (particularly OR) have a bad habit of asking members to drop by - unpaid - either during the day or on the "admin" night to complete various forms, etc.

Since the person is not on duty at such time, it's pretty bad form in my mind to require the member to be clean and shaven. At that time, the member is taking his/her own personal time for the convenience of the people in the OR (though, also for the member's own benefit - no doubt) and they should be happy the member is making the time for such.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We are dealing with a reservist, so unless he/she is on a class B or C contract, you can't really talk in terms of duty/leave or on duty/off duty dichotomies.

When on DND property the person is definitely subject to the Code of service discipline, but can only be said to be on duty if coming in to train or work and signs a pay sheet for it. At other time, the member is neither off duty nor on leave, but merely a civilian, so to speak.

Reserve units (particularly OR) have a bad habit of asking members to drop by - unpaid - either during the day or on the "admin" night to complete various forms, etc.

Since the person is not on duty at such time, it's pretty bad form in my mind to require the member to be clean and shaven. At that time, the member is taking his/her own personal time for the convenience of the people in the OR (though, also for the member's own benefit - no doubt) and they should be happy the member is making the time for such.

I always reminded my troops to sign a paysheet every time they were called in to do some administrivia, no matter how long (or short) a time it took.

The spurious calls by the BOR soon dried up.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Even for Reg Force folks.  What difference does it make if a person is shaven or not on his time off?  I sure as hell don't make an extra effort to shave or dress any more nicely than I would otherwise if I have to go to work on my time off.

 

[211RadOp]

From Sect 2 of the Dress Instructions:

Para 1 "...Pursuant to QR&O 17.02, the deportment and appearance of all ranks, in uniform or when wearing civilian attire, shall on all occasions reflect credit on the CAF and the individual."
Para 3 "...CAF personnel wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in military groups or settings shall dress and comport themselves at all times as befits members of a disciplined, cohesive force."

I do know in some units it is in Standing Orders that if you are coming in, even in civilians, you must be clean shaven unless you are authorized to grow a beard.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

From Sect 2 of the Dress Instructions:

Para 1 "...Pursuant to QR&O 17.02, the deportment and appearance of all ranks, in uniform or when wearing civilian attire, shall on all occasions reflect credit on the CAF and the individual."
Para 3 "...CAF personnel wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in military groups or settings shall dress and comport themselves at all times as befits members of a disciplined, cohesive force."

I do know in some units it is in Standing Orders that if you are coming in, even in civilians, you must be clean shaven unless you are authorized to grow a beard.

Which should be null and void now with the canforgen on beards...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Which should be null and void now with the canforgen on beards...

It's a culture thing:

'Culture eats strategy for breakfast.' - Peter Drucker

 

[BDTyre]

I work with my unit's RQ and at least once a month I am in on a Friday night and Sunday afternoon to issue/return weapons. Never once I have I been in uniform. In fact my state of dress varied greatly from pressed trousers and a nice sweater to old, worn shorts and a humorous t-shirt. Not once was I told this is unacceptable. Prior to BEARDFORGEN, I almost never would be clean shaven - again, this never seemed to be a problem.

So in the reserves...your mileage may vary.

 

[SupersonicMax]

From Sect 2 of the Dress Instructions:

Para 1 "...Pursuant to QR&O 17.02, the deportment and appearance of all ranks, in uniform or when wearing civilian attire, shall on all occasions reflect credit on the CAF and the individual."
Para 3 "...CAF personnel wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in military groups or settings shall dress and comport themselves at all times as befits members of a disciplined, cohesive force."

Well, this applies everywhere.  Does that mean I had to shave every day on leave before the CANFORGEN?  Were the same people jacking up people showing up to the OR unshaven jack people up in town for the same reason? 

There is absolutely not practial reason to ask people to behave differently on leave when they have to show up to work and otherwise.  In fact, it may turn people off the organization.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

The strictness of how each OR/BOR enforces deportment varies, both in PRes and RegF world...unfortunately. It also varies between every CoC. Would it be easier if everyone had the same standards across the board and adhered to policy to the T—inclusive of new beard policies? Absolutely. But many are sticklers for certain things, others not so much.

For example, CClk had me speak to a mbr about her hair--he wasn't satisfied with its appearance. (Nor was I for that matter.) But her direct CoC didn't think it was a big deal. Certain aspects of civvie dress are acceptable in the OR where I'm currently posted, but would've been turned away in a heartbeat where I was posted prior, on leave or not. It's one of those just-go-with-the-flow things in some instances--as confusing as it can be.

 

[Rifleman62]

All this is about facial hair I presume.

 

[jaysfan17]

Are they calling you in to do admin while you are on leave?

Yeah

 

[brihard]

Yeah

Fair enough. Show up with decent clothes, a copy of BEARDFORGEN, the email asking you to come in, and a pay sheet. If the army wants to pay you sixty bucks for a few minutes of admin, that’s worth putting pants on for. Just don’t do it for free.

 

[jaysfan17]

Fair enough. Show up with decent clothes, a copy of BEARDFORGEN, the email asking you to come in, and a pay sheet. If the army wants to pay you sixty bucks for a few minutes of admin, that’s worth putting pants on for. Just don’t do it for free.

So basically if they expect me to shave then I should be asking for a pay sheet?

 

[brihard]

So basically if they expect me to shave then I should be asking for a pay sheet?

No. If they expect you to show up and work, which includes admin, you should be asking for a pay sheet. If you’re showing up to work you’re expected to meet standards of dress and deportment. That no longer means needing to shave as long as your beard is within what the CANFORGEN specifies.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . They’re not in uniform hence off duty. Is there a rule I’m missing?

Though this topic has already been beaten to death, I came across this from the dress instructions while looking for something else.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/dress-manual/chapter-1.html#para-20

WORDS AND PHRASES – HOW CONSTRUED

20.  “On duty”.  As a general rule, for purposes of dress and appearance, a member is considered to be on duty:
a.  when actively engaged in operations, training or administrative duties, either in accordance with specific orders or in accordance with established military routine or practice;
b.  when  attending  a  course  or  administrative  function,  either  in  accordance  with  specific  orders  or established routine or practice;
c.  when participating in or attending any sport, recreational, social or other activity where military authorities require her/him to be there; or
d.  when he/she is at a specific place, or doing a specific act, because of a military order.

So yes, even when on leave or not otherwise being paid for military duty, if you show up at your unit to do some admin because it is the common and established practice to do it that way, then you are "on-duty" for purposes of dress and appearance and should be abiding by said regulations regarding appearance.