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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Remius

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No offense TCM, But what you said is exactly or very close to what we were told in the 90s. And the 2000s.
 

daftandbarmy

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So what would be your solution? How do we fix this? More lectures? More DLN? More “the RSM and CO will handles it”? Trust the system? Seems we’ve been doing this for ever and it isn’t working.

One of my SNCOs was on an exchange with the 82nd AB Div, in the USA, for awhile.

He described a usual day of training with the division where everyone was on muster parade at 5AM where they counted heads, then went on a divisional 'run', more like a slow trot, for about 30 minutes with their pennants out front of the columns and all the hoo hah sing songs etc.

Then there was a series of 'meetings' where the OCs slammed their tabs in to the COs and accounted for all their men and then, like an upwards flowing waterfall, COs reported to Bde Comds, Bde Comds to Div Comd and Div Comd to whatever XXX formation Comd sat in that chair.

All before breakfast. Every day.

When he first got there he thought he'd landed on some kind of movie set about an army that had gone off the deep end, and was pretty critical about the whole 'treating grown paratroopers like they were kids' thing etc.

But he had it explained to him that this was the only way they were able to convert their culture from a steep post-Vietnam area decline featuring alot of drugs, AWOL, negligence and violence etc. They started by weeding out anyone who couldn't make it on parade at 5am every day (alkies and druggies can't do this very well) and do a cheesy 3 mile jog with his colleagues. It also sorted out the chain of command who were reminded of their most basic leadership tasks: know where all your troops are, and be seen to be out front by them on a run, every day. They weeded out the bad leaders too. It worked like crazy, apparently.

After that realization, he regarded it as pure genius of course.

I don't know what the equivalent remedy in this case might be, but whatever it is it will take strong and consistent leadership from above.
 

rmc_wannabe

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I may be misremembering things, but isn't ethics (Conduct On/Off Duty) a "yes/no" bubble, instead of the 5-step bubbles?
Ethics is a 5 Step Bubble.

Conduct on/off duty is acceptable/not acceptable.

Typing out those 2 statements made me feel dirty because I know for certain both those AFs are not at all as black and white as CFPAS would have you think...
 

Brad Sallows

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So what would be your solution? How do we fix this? More lectures? More DLN? More “the RSM and CO will handles it”? Trust the system? Seems we’ve been doing this for ever and it isn’t working.

1. Know the standard.
2. Follow the standard.
3. Teach the standard.
4. Enforce the standard.

The problem is failure at points (2) and (4), not that new standards (lectures/demos/powerpoints/rules/processes/overseers) are needed.
 

Jarnhamar

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So what would be your solution? How do we fix this? More lectures? More DLN? More “the RSM and CO will handles it”? Trust the system? Seems we’ve been doing this for ever and it isn’t working.

For starters

Investigate Jon Vance.
Investigate Admiral MacDonald.
Investigate Vice-Admiral Edmundson.
Investigate the Major RTD'd from Kuwait.
Investigate Lt.-Col. Raphaël Guay.
Investigate Lt.-Col. David Buchanan.
Investigate the other 25 to 30 senior officers/COs (or so I've heard) who have been relieved for their behavior in the last few years.

If we find wrongdoing then actually do something about it and not sweep it under the rub or shuffle them to an HQ position.

Once the CAF proves it actually has a backbone to deal with this behavior at the senior level then come up with fancy pants slogans and some truth-to-power buzzphrases that are all the rage in the business sector.
 

dapaterson

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If the CAF issues a press release announcing "LCol Bloggins has been named as commanding officer of the 17th Battalion, Canadian Mukluk Repair Corps", then the CAF should also issue a press release announcing "LCol Bloggins has been relieved as commanding officer of the 17th Battalion, Canadian Mukluk Repair Corps". Even that minor bit of transparency would be welcome.
 

OldSolduer

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For starters

Investigate Jon Vance.
Investigate Admiral MacDonald.
Investigate Vice-Admiral Edmundson.
Investigate the Major RTD'd from Kuwait.
Investigate Lt.-Col. Raphaël Guay.
Investigate Lt.-Col. David Buchanan.
Investigate the other 25 to 30 senior officers/COs (or so I've heard) who have been relieved for their behavior in the last few years.

If we find wrongdoing then actually do something about it and not sweep it under the rub or shuffle them to an HQ position.

Once the CAF proves it actually has a backbone to deal with this behavior at the senior level then come up with fancy pants slogans and some truth-to-power buzzphrases that are all the rage in the business sector.
I agree with this. It’s targeted on those who supposedly stepped over the line. As long as there is probable cause to investigate that’s fine. When it’s based on rumour…..
 

ballz

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Yes, a non-compromising adherence accountability works well, now if you'll all come back to the CAF... we compromised on accountability a long time ago and now it doesn't exist for anybody above the rank of MCpl. How do you re-create a culture of accountability out of one where there is none? That's not so simple. At a small level (small teams) it's a lot easier, switch out a few personalities and empower those people. Hard to argue our leadership is not already "empowered" when it comes to remedial measures and a disciplinary system, the systems exist to fix it but there is a refusal to use them.

I circle back to my example of when I was Lt and was hung out to dry by my OC and then the CO/RSM. How many times do you need to touch a hot stove before you realize it's hot? I faced more consequences for trying than the guy who couldn't be trusted to bring his snowshoes on a winter ex. We lost two good Sgts to medical releases, and I've got one foot out the door, all because the leaders we selected don't share your same enthusiasm for accountability.... I'm sure they talk a big game about it, when faced with having to execute it though, most seem to falter.

The idea floated was to have someone embedded with command teams. If I am to be monitored, I expect it to be for something I have done, not something someone else has done.

You were responding to my post in which I stated that if someone gets course corrected and fails to correct course, a more hands-on approach is inevitable. That the person who is failing to show competence is going to lose the trust of their higher.

You responded to that talking about how if it's done without cause..... I reject that the premise you're trying to lay your argument on is valid. Your suggestion that more micromanagement would be "without cause" is ridiculous.

Your inability to see the point I was responding to and the response I was making is your fault, not mine.

Ironic given that we're talking about accountability.... I've always considered the onus to be on me, as the communicator, to ensure my message was clear for the audience. In any case, on your point we're in violent agreement, that's the not the problem. The premise upon which it is based I find ridiculous.

If you think this isn't a crisis, you're wrong. The CAF is very similar to a self-regulated profession, the profession of arms. Much like doctors, lawyers, accountants, the public has put some legislation in place to allow us to govern ourselves. Losing the confidence of the public is a crisis, and leads to losing that autonomy that you clearly value. The writing is on the wall, if we won't fix it we shouldn't be bitching and moaning about it when someone swoops in and decides to fix it for us on their terms.
 
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OldSolduer

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“Seek and accept responsibility “ is one of the Principles of Leadership. It means that you accept responsibility when you eff up too, not just when good things happen. And you seek greater responsibility- like commanding an infantry section.
Few realize this.
 

Brad Sallows

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You were responding to my post in which I stated that if someone gets course corrected and fails to correct course, a more hands-on approach is inevitable.

The original suggestion (not yours) was "But embed in every unit or command team an independent sexual harassment advisor observer." Note the "every". Note the "independent". Note the single focus of responsibility. Not exactly presumed guilt and collective punishment (it's not punishment), but the same flavour.

My objection was "Yeah, that describes "commissar". Great for morale. Clear demonstration of trust - basically the highest levels saying, "we don't trust you", which inevitably leads to the lower levels saying, "so why should we?"

You chimed in with "...Your take on it reminds me of the shitty subordinate who can't seem to tie their shoes correctly and complains that they are being micromanaged...".

My "take" isn't a defence of shitty subordinates. My "take" is about the ill effects on the institution of demonstrating lack of trust in those who haven't demonstrated untrustworthiness (everybody? truly?). You're the one who wants to make it about shitty subordinates rather than those who haven't done anything requiring close supervision.
 

TCM621

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No offense TCM, But what you said is exactly or very close to what we were told in the 90s. And the 2000s.
Just because they didn't listen doesn't make the solution any less correct. If I told you the way to way to deal with infection is with antibiotics but you decided to use crystals and prayer, is the problem with the antibiotics or the people who don't use them?

Absolutely our commanders failed us. Maybe they can be forgiven a little bit because they were focused on fighting a war but that is being very generous. It starts at the very top. The government didn't address the CDS problem, the CDS didn't deal with the problem among his (near) peers who didn't deal with their direct subordinates.

Like I said if the CO of the Dragoons way back when had (figuratively) smacked Capt Vance's peepee maybe he doesn't becime the serial offender he became and maybe the entire Army doesn't dismiss everything he says because they wouldn't see him as a giant hypocrite. Yes it should have been done 20 years ago and it has to a pretty great extent. I rarely see any of the things they taught us on SHARP anymore and they are quickly dealt with under normal circumstances. We just need to go after the superstars as well as the person no one likes or is no longer seen as upwardly mobile. I have never seen a career corporal get away with stuff Cols and Generals get away with on the daily.
 

Halifax Tar

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One of my SNCOs was on an exchange with the 82nd AB Div, in the USA, for awhile.

He described a usual day of training with the division where everyone was on muster parade at 5AM where they counted heads, then went on a divisional 'run', more like a slow trot, for about 30 minutes with their pennants out front of the columns and all the hoo hah sing songs etc.

Then there was a series of 'meetings' where the OCs slammed their tabs in to the COs and accounted for all their men and then, like an upwards flowing waterfall, COs reported to Bde Comds, Bde Comds to Div Comd and Div Comd to whatever XXX formation Comd sat in that chair.

All before breakfast. Every day.

When he first got there he thought he'd landed on some kind of movie set about an army that had gone off the deep end, and was pretty critical about the whole 'treating grown paratroopers like they were kids' thing etc.

But he had it explained to him that this was the only way they were able to convert their culture from a steep post-Vietnam area decline featuring alot of drugs, AWOL, negligence and violence etc. They started by weeding out anyone who couldn't make it on parade at 5am every day (alkies and druggies can't do this very well) and do a cheesy 3 mile jog with his colleagues. It also sorted out the chain of command who were reminded of their most basic leadership tasks: know where all your troops are, and be seen to be out front by them on a run, every day. They weeded out the bad leaders too. It worked like crazy, apparently.

After that realization, he regarded it as pure genius of course.

I don't know what the equivalent remedy in this case might be, but whatever it is it will take strong and consistent leadership from above.
Sounds like discipline and using the tools (Rules and Regs) at hand.

We need the Officers to point the ship in the right direction and then we need the Snr NCMs to make it move in that direction.
 

dapaterson

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Questions of the institution holding its members to account are not new.

Twenty-five years ago today the Court Martial Appeal Court (CMAC) tossed the sentence of Maj Anthony Seward, Officer Commanding 2 Commando of the Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia. A court martial of his peers had sentenced him to a severe reprimand after convicting him under section 124 of the National Defence Act for negligently performing a military duty imposed on him. The CMAC decision noted "I think it is fair to assume that in any well-run civilian organisation an order given by a mid-level executive, leading to such disastrous consequences for his subordinates and the organisation, would rate more than a negative comment in his personnel file, the equivalent of a "severe reprimand"." A new sentence, of three months imprisonment and dismissal from Her Majesty's Service, was substituted instead. R. v. Seward - Court Martial Appeal Court
 

ModlrMike

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If the CAF issues a press release announcing "LCol Bloggins has been named as commanding officer of the 17th Battalion, Canadian Mukluk Repair Corps", then the CAF should also issue a press release announcing "LCol Bloggins has been relieved as commanding officer of the 17th Battalion, Canadian Mukluk Repair Corps". Even that minor bit of transparency would be welcome.
To ask the next logical question... What happens when LCol Bloggins has been exonerated? Do they get their command and reputation back?
 

dapaterson

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A follow on announcement that they have been restored to their position.

But you can't have it both ways.
 
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