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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

dapaterson

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Interestingly, on appeal the case was sent downtown instead of court martial.
 

FJAG

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Interestingly, on appeal the case was sent downtown instead of court martial.
I found that interesting too. Apparently the DMPS gave here the option and she "didn't hesitate" to take it downtown. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall when giving her the option was discussed.

🍻
 

Haggis

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Interestingly, on appeal the case was sent downtown instead of court martial.
How often does this occur? I have only heard of one other circumstance where this occurred and it was a long, long time ago.
 

The Bread Guy

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In a related vein, time for a different way of doing things?
Military ombudsman Greg Lick is calling on the federal government to make his office truly independent, saying the current structure is undercutting confidence in its ability to fight for aggrieved Canadian Armed Forces members and others.

In an exclusive interview with The Canadian Press, Lick says he initially believed when he took the ombudsman’s job in November 2018 that he could work with the current structure, in which senior defence officials are responsible for approving his budget and staffing.

But Lick says he has since changed his mind because the situation sets up real and perceived conflicts of interest, and he now fully endorses the calls of his predecessor Gary Walbourne to have the ombudsman’s office report to Parliament instead of the defence minister ...
 

daftandbarmy

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And the Toronto Sun.... both barrels

BONOKOSKI: Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan scores a failing grade​


Face it, the top brass of the Canadian military is entangled in a rat’s nest of alleged sexual improprieties that is far from being unravelled.

That’s because no one is in charge.

Harjit Sajjan, a defence minister who was once a lieutenant-colonel in the Canadian army, doesn’t seem to know what a defence minister does.

He’s getting a lot of grief for it, and he’s also getting thin-skinned.

He pitifully pulled out his own race card in dismissing the idea of anyone “knowing” about his years in an army uniform, as the Toronto Sun’s Lorrie Goldstein reported Sunday.

In Sajjan’s military, senior ranking officers who spent years climbing the ladder have no idea how to handle a sexual-based complaint when it’s caught in the zipper of one of their own.

The former chief of defence staff, Jonathan Vance, once commander of all military branches, is up to his goolies in sexual insubordination allegations supposedly committed during his latter years in uniform — all of which he denies.

 

Edward Campbell

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More o that from the National Post: Link removed as per site guidelines. Bruce
 
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Pieman

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This thread is enormous so perhaps I missed it, but could someone please define what "sexual misconduct" is exactly?

It seems to be a blanket statement that could be applied to anything the victim decides is inappropriate and "sexual". The word "sexual' itself can be applied to anything the victim decides. For example the person blew a kiss at the victim as a joke. That's "sexual" and should be punished by public shaming, and career destruction.

Worse, if the victim makes a public accusation the person is treated like a rapist or murderer because they did something that may be inappropriate but far from being illegal. You are guilty because the accusation is made, and your career and reputation is destroyed.


With that in mind when someone who is accused of "sexual misconduct" leaves me wondering if he asked the victim on a date, or finger blasted the victim consensually behind the water cooler, but he was the victims superior. Both situations are treated the same.

There is obviously a difference between "Sexual Misconduct" and "sexual violence". One is illegal, one is not but you might as well have killed someone given the punishment.
 

dangerboy

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This thread is enormous so perhaps I missed it, but could someone please define what "sexual misconduct" is exactly?

It seems to be a blanket statement that could be applied to anything the victim decides is inappropriate and "sexual". The word "sexual' itself can be applied to anything the victim decides. For example the person blew a kiss at the victim as a joke. That's "sexual" and should be punished by public shaming, and career destruction.

Worse, if the victim makes a public accusation the person is treated like a rapist or murderer because they did something that may be inappropriate but far from being illegal. You are guilty because the accusation is made, and your career and reputation is destroyed.


With that in mind when someone who is accused of "sexual misconduct" leaves me wondering if he asked the victim on a date, or finger blasted the victim consensually behind the water cooler, but he was the victims superior. Both situations are treated the same.

There is obviously a difference between "Sexual Misconduct" and "sexual violence". One is illegal, one is not but you might as well have killed someone given the punishment.
Here is what DAOD's define it as:


sexual misconduct (inconduite sexuelle)

Conduct of a sexual nature that causes or could cause harm to others, and that the person knew or ought reasonably to have known could cause harm, including:

  • actions or words that devalue others on the basis of their sex, sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression;
  • jokes of a sexual nature, sexual remarks, advances of a sexual nature or verbal abuse of a sexual nature in the workplace;
  • harassment of a sexual nature, including initiation rites of a sexual nature;
  • viewing, accessing, distributing or displaying sexually explicit material in the workplace; and
  • any Criminal Codeoffence of a sexual nature, including:
    • section 162 (voyeurism, i.e. surreptitiously observing or recording a person in a place where the person exposes or could expose his or her genital organs or anal region or her breasts or could be engaged in explicit sexual activity, or distributing such a recording);
    • section 162.1 (publication, etc., of an intimate image without consent, i.e. publishing, distributing, transmitting, selling or making available an intimate image of another person without their consent, such as a visual recording in which the person depicted is nude, exposing his or her genital organs or anal region or her breasts, or is engaged in explicit sexual activity); and
    • section 271 (sexual assault, i.e. engaging in any kind of sexual activity with another person without their consent). (Defence Terminology Bank record number 43247)
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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With that in mind when someone who is accused of "sexual misconduct" leaves me wondering if he asked the victim on a date, or finger blasted the victim consensually behind the water cooler,


Really?? Those are your choice of words on a thread that is trying to delve into an extremely sensitive subject for many?? How about a little couth please?
 

hattrick72

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This thread is enormous so perhaps I missed it, but could someone please define what "sexual misconduct" is exactly?

It seems to be a blanket statement that could be applied to anything the victim decides is inappropriate and "sexual". The word "sexual' itself can be applied to anything the victim decides. For example the person blew a kiss at the victim as a joke. That's "sexual" and should be punished by public shaming, and career destruction.

Worse, if the victim makes a public accusation the person is treated like a rapist or murderer because they did something that may be inappropriate but far from being illegal. You are guilty because the accusation is made, and your career and reputation is destroyed.


With that in mind when someone who is accused of "sexual misconduct" leaves me wondering if he asked the victim on a date, or finger blasted the victim consensually behind the water cooler, but he was the victims superior. Both situations are treated the same.

There is obviously a difference between "Sexual Misconduct" and "sexual violence". One is illegal, one is not but you might as well have killed someone given the punishment.
Looks like 1 CER built a bridge in the forest and let some of their members live under it in 2014.
 

Brash

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With that in mind when someone who is accused of "sexual misconduct" leaves me wondering if he asked the victim on a date, or finger blasted the victim consensually behind the water cooler, but he was the victims superior. Both situations are treated the same.

There is obviously a difference between "Sexual Misconduct" and "sexual violence". One is illegal, one is not but you might as well have killed someone given the punishment.
Attitudes like this are part of the problem. I hope you realize that.
 

FormerHorseGuard

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Just a quick opinion. If you feel that you cannot take your date to the mess, or take her home to meet mom, there is something wrong with that. Cannot take her or him to the mess because it is public and your admitting you are breaking the rules. Too ashamed to introduce her or him to mom because you are breaking some rule in dating her or him. Cannot take your date to a family event ( in this case Regimental event) there is something wrong with the relationship. I know officers who dated enlisted persons, they were open and not in the same chain of command. Some officers were enlisted persons before becoming an officer, but that happens. But if you are running around and hiding your relationship that is the problem. But when an officer or snr enlisted person uses their rank to get dates that is a bigger misconduct.
 

Mediman14

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The CAF has some great officers and some great NCO's, with that there is the complete opposite serving. I am not surprised there is misconduct in the senior ranks. I am also not surprised that some CoC interfered with investigations or tried to hide things, either to help someone they like or to prevent further embarrassments to prevent them from getting promoted, prevent them from getting their next command position. It has been ongoing for many years, many had just turned their head and pretend nothing happen. For anyone to say, "I don't believe it" are kidding themselves. IMO I think we all have skeletons in our closet, the government will be hard pressed to find the next clean slated CDS. I recently seen a interview with Ret Lt Gen Whitecross (the one who was appointed to find out about sexual misconducts), she had admitted that she seen some stuff and turned her head pretending she never seen it. Look at that female LCol, who just retired, she was grossed out to learn about the amount of it that took place and admitted she seen it and probably took part in some misconduct just never got caught.
IMO it doesn't matter who gets called out on it, charged/ release or whatever, it's going to continue. There needs to be a independent investigations on these allegations. Someone who is not military, someone who is not politically charged but yet have the authority to make changes. It's probably not going to happen.
 

CBH99

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It's truly unfortunate if our good officers are getting dragged through the mud along with the dipshit ones. Regular NCO razzing aside, there's some wicked wicked officers in the CAF who are honourable, inspiring, and enjoyable to be around and lead by. Proud to say my Pl Comd is one of them.

The truth is some NCOs are just as horrible as these (bad) officers are. When you consider the old boys club, maybe worse. NCOs get away with all kinds of harassment, intimidation, and misconduct.

There's 4 young women in my contact list who all left the CAF recently after very short careers. 3 year engagement or 3+4. All of them had NCOs act like pigs to them and their chain of command either didn't support them or punished them. This isn't 2nd hand info either, I've seen email and text convos. It's very sad.
At this point, aside from the obvious, being a soldier or police officer is the last job I would want my daughters doing.
I'll admit, my eyes and mind have been opened lately as to what actually happens even if not noticed/observed by some members. As I get older, I'm always surprised at how naïve I was when I was younger.

I can honestly say, with 100% confidence, that in my approximately 10 years in the military, I did not observe, hear, or see any behaviour like that. While NCO's - especially in a smaller unit - would joke around and raz each other, I never once observed or witnessed any sort of inappropriate sexual behaviour or comments towards any of our female members. (We had quite a few, and they were very much part of the 'crew')

It doesn't surprise me to learn that there are pigs and dirtbags about. I AM surprised to hear about these stories on this board (and others I've heard offline) and how this kind of crap was allowed / is allowed to happen still. I thought with all the focus on OP HONOUR that these kinds of allegations and behaviours would be stomped out quickly and without holding back. (I've heard positive stories of CO's taking immediate and decisive action against members when this kind of nonsense happens - I just assumed it was the case across the board.)
 

MilEME09

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I'll admit, my eyes and mind have been opened lately as to what actually happens even if not noticed/observed by some members. As I get older, I'm always surprised at how naïve I was when I was younger.

I can honestly say, with 100% confidence, that in my approximately 10 years in the military, I did not observe, hear, or see any behaviour like that. While NCO's - especially in a smaller unit - would joke around and raz each other, I never once observed or witnessed any sort of inappropriate sexual behaviour or comments towards any of our female members. (We had quite a few, and they were very much part of the 'crew')

It doesn't surprise me to learn that there are pigs and dirtbags about. I AM surprised to hear about these stories on this board (and others I've heard offline) and how this kind of crap was allowed / is allowed to happen still. I thought with all the focus on OP HONOUR that these kinds of allegations and behaviours would be stomped out quickly and without holding back. (I've heard positive stories of CO's taking immediate and decisive action against members when this kind of nonsense happens - I just assumed it was the case across the board.)
Remember when Vance said an OP honor violation would mean release? Doesnt seem to always be the case I guess.
 

Mediman14

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I'll admit, my eyes and mind have been opened lately as to what actually happens even if not noticed/observed by some members. As I get older, I'm always surprised at how naïve I was when I was younger.

I can honestly say, with 100% confidence, that in my approximately 10 years in the military, I did not observe, hear, or see any behaviour like that. While NCO's - especially in a smaller unit - would joke around and raz each other, I never once observed or witnessed any sort of inappropriate sexual behaviour or comments towards any of our female members. (We had quite a few, and they were very much part of the 'crew')

It doesn't surprise me to learn that there are pigs and dirtbags about. I AM surprised to hear about these stories on this board (and others I've heard offline) and how this kind of crap was allowed / is allowed to happen still. I thought with all the focus on OP HONOUR that these kinds of allegations and behaviours would be stomped out quickly and without holding back. (I've heard positive stories of CO's taking immediate and decisive action against members when this kind of nonsense happens - I just assumed it was the case across the board.)
Most of my 20 years, I never really payed attention to much. I went to the unit, did what I had to do for the day, then went home with my family Never went to the party's, nor did I care. As I think back about things, I know realize some things. Some Snr NCO's slept with their juniors, some officers slept with juniors, some people came to work drunk, mishandling of NPF funds etc. All of these was reported, nothing ever happen. Instead, most of them got promoted, got awards etc. For the honest hard worker, it is a kick in the junk.
 

rmc_wannabe

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I am of the opinion that everyone has something they're not proud of in their history. I will fully admit that through ignorance or indifference I have made numerous errors in judgement in my time in uniform. I. too, am cognizant that by nature of my gender and privilege that I have not seen these situations of sexism, sexual misconduct, or sexual harassment; my eyes weren't open to them.

Much like when I got sober, when I knew better I did better. I also am a firm believer in making amends where they can be made. There is no amends that can be made in these situations, however, transparency and accountability are a small measure in reconciliation. I think that the CAF Leadership needs to emulate and exemplify that mentality.
 
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