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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

dimsum

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Dead man walking.
Donald Glover Reaction GIF
 

CountDC

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so... Fortin supposedly exposed himself in the quarters at RMC 30+ years ago according to one person and he gets removed. Trudeau is accused, admits to the encounter and apologizes that the woman has a different recollection of events than he does so the whole thing goes away. hmmmmm.
 

cavalryman

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so... Fortin supposedly exposed himself in the quarters at RMC 30+ years ago according to one person and he gets removed. Trudeau is accused, admits to the encounter and apologizes that the woman has a different recollection of events than he does so the whole thing goes away. hmmmmm.
I suppose Trudeau could be using George Orwell's "Animal Farm" as a how-to manual.
 

OldSolduer

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so... Fortin supposedly exposed himself in the quarters at RMC 30+ years ago according to one person and he gets removed. Trudeau is accused, admits to the encounter and apologizes that the woman has a different recollection of events than he does so the whole thing goes away. hmmmmm.
Such is the state of Canada these days. It may get worse.
 

Jarnhamar

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I bet Vance has a lot of dirt on people, including the LPC.

And I bet David Lametti gets a call from the PMO, SNC style.
 

Weinie

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I bet Vance has a lot of dirt on people, including the LPC.

And I bet David Lametti gets a call from the PMO, SNC style.
There's dirt, and then there is shyte. At this point in time, Vance is up to his neck in shyte, and has little capacity to throw dirt.
 

brihard

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When did Vance actually formally release from CAF? Was he still enrolled in early February?


When does MGen Fortin get his day in court? Is it after Sept 30th? If so that may be one factor into such a short campaign, can't have the trial play out during an election
I don’t believe a charge has even been laid. From when a charge is laid in a routine criminal matter, expect it to be over a year before going to trial. That would not be a consideration in electoral timing in this case.
 

MJP

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What is that, 50/50? Lot of room for error.
That is an overly simplistic way of looking at it. Balance of probabilities is a well developed methodology of determining the occurrence of the event was more likely than not. As we have hashed out a few times in this thread there is no need for a beyond a reasonable doubt outside of the courtroom despite what some people think
 

Eaglelord17

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When a jury reads its verdict do they say we find the defendant not guilty or do they say we find the defendant to be innocent? I believe it is the former. Once you have been accused, you are never again an innocent person.
And some people not proven guilty in a court of law are still criminals and guilty of the actions. I happen to know of more than a few CAF members who due to lack of evidence are walking free when they should be behind bars.
 

ballz

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What is that, 50/50? Lot of room for error.

Besides that that is overly simplistic, who cares? We're not talking about putting people in legal jeopardy. We're talking about applying administrative action.

I wonder if you would volunteer to have your brain surgery performed by someone who more than likely killed someone out of criminal negligence, but the case couldn't be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" because the patient was near-death anyway and so it couldn't be proven that the rusty nail they accidentally left inside a guy's skull is what caused the death.

Sure, the guy shouldn't go to jail if it can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but he should lose his medical license.


Presumption of innocence is a key tenet of democracy. It is a legal and international human right.

Today the presumption of innocence is watered down, and that is just another example of erosion in our democratic way of life.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the balance of probabilities for administrative law is a violation of human rights?

Or do you have any evidence that suggests wrongful convictions have increased in the Canadian legal system?
 
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Mick

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Besides that that is overly simplistic, who cares? We're not talking about putting people in legal jeopardy. We're talking about applying administrative action.

I wonder if you would volunteer to have your brain surgery performed by someone who more than likely killed someone out of criminal negligence, but the case couldn't be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" because the patient was near-death anyway and so it couldn't be proven that the rusty nail they accidentally left inside a guy's skull is what caused the death.

Sure, the guy shouldn't go to jail if it can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but he should lose his medical license.




Are you seriously trying to argue that the balance of probabilities for administrative law is a violation of human rights?

Or do you have any evidence that suggests wrongful convictions have increased in the Canadian legal system?
Has Admiral McDonald undergone an administrative review, or any civil proceedings yet? If not, it may be too early to proclaim that he is, "on the balance of probabilities, guilty."
 

brihard

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Presumption of innocence is a key tenet of democracy. It is a legal and international human right.

Today the presumption of innocence is watered down, and that is just another example of erosion in our democratic way of life.
Presumption of innocence applies when charged with an offense that carries some sort of judicial sanction. It’s not a concept that carries over the same way to administrative law matters, because administrative law doesn’t deal with ‘guilt’ in the sense of offences. Administrative law hinges on reasonableness and procedural fairness.

A person can do a thing that is both a criminal offense and also an administrative contravention of expected professional standards or employment requirements. Both processes can be applied to the same set of facts, and someone who is acquitted of a criminal offense can still be found on a balance of probabilities to have committed an act or omission that merits professional/regulatory sanction or is otherwise incompatible with continued employment. This is not a diminution of our Charter rights.
 

MJP

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Has Admiral McDonald undergone an administrative review, or any civil proceedings yet? If not, it may be too early to proclaim that he is, "on the balance of probabilities, guilty."
Currently the way the system is set up we will never know as that is Pro B info. Both Ballz and MCG have pointed out a professional board system might help close these gaps and provide closure and show the institution is doing its jobs managing people. Right now anything beyond ST/CM is a black hole that can hide people

Sorry edit cause bad copy paste
 
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MJP

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Presumption of innocence applies when charged with an offense that carries some sort of judicial sanction. It’s not a concept that carries over the same way to administrative law matters, because administrative law doesn’t deal with ‘guilt’ in the sense of offences. Administrative law hinges on reasonableness and procedural fairness.

A person can do a thing that is both a criminal offense and also an administrative contravention of expected professional standards or employment requirements. Both processes can be applied to the same set of facts, and someone who is acquitted of a criminal offense can still be found on a balance of probabilities to have committed an act or omission that merits professional/regulatory sanction or is otherwise incompatible with continued employment. This is not a diminution of our Charter rights.
Well said! The CAF needs to get better at saying get lost to people who don't follow our ethos and standards, not up the standard of judgment to beyond a reasonable doubt.
 

OldSolduer

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There's dirt, and then there is shyte. At this point in time, Vance is up to his neck in shyte, and has little capacity to throw dirt.
Yes Mr Vance is up to his neck but I bet he knows where a few Liberal bodies are buried and Conservative ones too.
 

ballz

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Has Admiral McDonald undergone an administrative review, or any civil proceedings yet? If not, it may be too early to proclaim that he is, "on the balance of probabilities, guilty."

I have never indicated I think he's guilty or not guilty (on the balance of probabilities). I've advocated for transparency. Do an admin review, and make it public. That's all I ask.

I don't even know what he's accused of, let alone what any of the evidence looks like. I cannot know, and therefore I can't have an informed opinion on whether he should or should not be fired. And that's not fair to me, or anyone on this thread, or any Canadian citizen... we live in a free and democratic country (apparently), we should be able to judge the government and the military accordingly.
 
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