• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
533
Points
1,040
I was a bit reluctant about accepting the idea at first, but after reading the REG example I think I get it.

It is useful to have someone not at 20+ years in that has a clear line of communication with the command team. With the examples brought in REG, the FWD Section Base, and dockyard access, the default answer from most supervisors would have been "that's how it is", "sleep in more clothing", "single people have to walk down, so can you". Not necessarily because the supervisor is a bad person, but because it's the easy answer, and the supervisor has 100 other things to get done today. They likely also "know" that when they take it up another level their supervisor will give the same answers, or assign the subordinate to "write a memo", the universal "I'll make this not worth your time with andministrivia/hassel". That means the Jr. sailor's issue never makes it to Command's attention, so Command isn't able to use their power to fix it.

Even if the above scenario doesn't happen, and all leaders are as prefect as people pretend to be online, there is still multiple layers of CoC for a Jr member to get concerns through before it reaches the top. After going through a MS-PO2-PO1-CPO2-CPO1-XO-CO, or alternatively MS-PO2-PO1-CPO2-HOD-XO-CO the problem/solution may be so distorted by the telephone game, and personal interpretation/ideas that it bears little resemblance to what the Jr member brought up.

With a culture officer the Jr sailor can speak directly to the person that will speak directly to the CO, and theoretically the culture officer will be Jr enough to not be completely institutionalized to the point they give the supervisor standard answers. Maybe I'm way off, but this is what it seems like from my perspective.


What if the RSM/SWO/Cox'n also don't see the problem? I guarantee there are things we don't see as PO1/WOs that the Jr people do, let alone a CWO/CPO1 layers above us.

The 2 mess issue isn't new, why do we keep reinventing the wheels to fix known problems that keep getting forgotten about? Your options are pretty limited to getting dressed in either 1 or 2 mess; there just isn't room up there. Glad they found an option other than trying to pack 30 people into a hallway until the mess is cleared out. (although if your ass is still hanging out in your mess when other people have already gotten dressed, transited the ship and started getting dressed, the problem isn't necessarily the lack of privacy).
 

Furniture

Sr. Member
Reaction score
105
Points
480
The 2 mess issue isn't new, why do we keep reinventing the wheels to fix known problems that keep getting forgotten about? Your options are pretty limited to getting dressed in either 1 or 2 mess; there just isn't room up there. Glad they found an option other than trying to pack 30 people into a hallway until the mess is cleared out. (although if your ass is still hanging out in your mess when other people have already gotten dressed, transited the ship and started getting dressed, the problem isn't necessarily the lack of privacy).
Having spent some time in 2 Mess during WUPS, I found it was the people that were already up and on watch that were the issue. If on watch NESOP S3 Bloggins comes charging out of the OPS Room at Emergency Stations into 2 mess, on the way to dress in the FWD SB, there isn't a lot of time to be up and dressed.

For me it wasn't an issue, but I can see where it could be an issue for some others. A curtain keeps curious eyes away, and helps keep the mess darker when sleeping normally... a win-win in my opinion.
 

Jarnhamar

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,180
Points
1,060
Maybe it would be good to have someone whose job is to inject β€œhey sir, is this idea really a match with the values the institution claims are important?”
Inject and promptly be ignored.

Also yes please, more officer positions.
 
Last edited:

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
533
Points
1,040
Having spent some time in 2 Mess during WUPS, I found it was the people that were already up and on watch that were the issue. If on watch NESOP S3 Bloggins comes charging out of the OPS Room at Emergency Stations into 2 mess, on the way to dress in the FWD SB, there isn't a lot of time to be up and dressed.

For me it wasn't an issue, but I can see where it could be an issue for some others. A curtain keeps curious eyes away, and helps keep the mess darker when sleeping normally... a win-win in my opinion.
For sure, things can definitely get awkward in the first 90 seconds or so, also glad they could find a reasonable solution. Same thing used to happen on the 280s in the quad cabins, which was where the AT hung out once they were dressed. Folks got lots of slack in the first two minutes or so, but after that, not so much, and remember a SLt getting basically chucked out with their remaining kit at the 5 minute mark.

The whole secondary duty sounds pretty reasonable (if done right), but hopefully there is some common sense if it's an equipment related issue and the HOD/CHODs responsible gets a heads up first so they can at least have the opportunity to figure out a plan. Getting blindsided by the CO/XO on something like that would get annoying quickly, and folks are already spread thin enough to be transparent that seems unfair.
 

Jarnhamar

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
1,180
Points
1,060
Why does it have to be an officer?
My opinion - when push comes to shove a majority of COs in the CAF aren't going to listen to an NCM reminding them about optics and culture.

These guys and girls aren't listening now to ncms, officers, padres. They do what they want because rules are for other people.

Regular caveats of not all bad guys but for the people who ARE the problem, they're especially not going to listen.
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
3,701
Points
1,060
Any reason that they have to be uniformed members?


Shocked Face Wow GIF
 

Humphrey Bogart

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Reaction score
473
Points
1,010
The 2 mess issue isn't new, why do we keep reinventing the wheels to fix known problems that keep getting forgotten about? Your options are pretty limited to getting dressed in either 1 or 2 mess; there just isn't room up there. Glad they found an option other than trying to pack 30 people into a hallway until the mess is cleared out. (although if your ass is still hanging out in your mess when other people have already gotten dressed, transited the ship and started getting dressed, the problem isn't necessarily the lack of privacy).
This is kind of stupid tbh and just goes to show that the CAF and Canadian society writ large is stuck in the age of 3rd Wave Feminism.

The issue is that some people are pigs and can't get their head out of the gutter and just do their bloody jobs without finding a reason to objectify the other sex or someone else's body.

We need to aggressively purge this sort of thing from our Ships and work places. My solution would be mixed messing for everyone, and then absolutely skewer the first group of people that can't act like professionals. There should be no such thing as "all male messes" or "all female messes" etc.

It's kind of funny because having segregated messes, etc. literally violates the principles espoused in GBA+ which is based on intersectionality.
 

MilEME09

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
628
Points
940
Alright let's back the train up a station or two, under the system currently it would seem a lot of power has been stripped from the SNCO, so in the situation of say a CO making a questionable choice what powers does an RSM currently have if they know the call is wrong?
 

FJAG

Army.ca Fixture
Reaction score
1,522
Points
1,040
Alright let's back the train up a station or two, under the system currently it would seem a lot of power has been stripped from the SNCO, so in the situation of say a CO making a questionable choice what powers does an RSM currently have if they know the call is wrong?
I'm not sure that any powers have been stripped from Snr NCOs. The military has evolved over the last seventy years which temper the way we do things, but essentially the fundamental roles remain the same.

In the case of a CO making a questionable call an RSM's "powers" are today what they've always been - to act as an advisor who uses moral suasion and failing that to implement the direction to the best of his ability. That is of course tempered by the long standing justification to disobey an order or direction that is "manifestly unlawful" and to, pursuant to QR&O 5.01e "report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline"

🍻
 

Haggis

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
624
Points
910
I'm not sure that any powers have been stripped from Snr NCOs. The military has evolved over the last seventy years which temper the way we do things, but essentially the fundamental roles remain the same.

In the case of a CO making a questionable call an RSM's "powers" are today what they've always been - to act as an advisor who uses moral suasion and failing that to implement the direction to the best of his ability. That is of course tempered by the long standing justification to disobey an order or direction that is "manifestly unlawful" and to, pursuant to QR&O 5.01e "report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline"

🍻
In theory, true. In practice, an RSMs "powers" are the same as any sr NCM, but their sphere of influence is greater. The bottom line is that these powers can be tempered by the openness of the CO (and other officers) to seek and/or accept the advice of the RSM and by the willingness of the RSM to offer said advice.
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
419
Points
880
This is kind of stupid tbh and just goes to show that the CAF and Canadian society writ large is stuck in the age of 3rd Wave Feminism.

The issue is that some people are pigs and can't get their head out of the gutter and just do their bloody jobs without finding a reason to objectify the other sex or someone else's body.

We need to aggressively purge this sort of thing from our Ships and work places. My solution would be mixed messing for everyone, and then absolutely skewer the first group of people that can't act like professionals. There should be no such thing as "all male messes" or "all female messes" etc.

It's kind of funny because having segregated messes, etc. literally violates the principles espoused in GBA+ which is based on intersectionality.

On FRE we discussed this. And we found the older people got the more they wanted their segregated messes. Basically the ladies in the C&POs mess didn't want to share a mess deck with 8 men burping and farting all night.
 

Humphrey Bogart

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Reaction score
473
Points
1,010
On FRE we discussed this. And we found the older people got the more they wanted their segregated messes. Basically the ladies in the C&POs mess didn't want to share a mess deck with 8 men burping and farting all night.
Older people are generally less comfortable with being uncomfortable but they need to suck it up, especially if they are in a leadership position. We need to stop bending over backwards to accommodate every single person's personal preferences and treat everyone with the same standard regardless of rank or position.

I think it's completely unreasonable to discuss changing facilities in an emergency situation, especially a real one. How about instead of worrying about people changing, people get out of their racks and put on firefighting gear or stop gazing at someone and do their job? We have women that share a foxhole with men and vice-versa and are able to get the job done without issue so why is this any different?

In my mind, this is the Western puritanical equivalent of devout Muslims worrying about women exposing their arms or legs while clad in a Burqa.
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
419
Points
880
Older people are generally less comfortable with being uncomfortable but they need to suck it up, especially if they are in a leadership position. We need to stop bending over backwards to accommodate every single person's personal preferences and treat everyone with the same standard regardless of rank or position.

I think it's completely unreasonable to discuss changing facilities in an emergency situation, especially a real one. How about instead of worrying about people changing, people get out of their racks and put on firefighting gear or stop gazing at someone and do their job? We have women that share a foxhole with men and vice-versa and are able to get the job done without issue so why is this any different?

In my mind, this is the Western puritanical equivalent of devout Muslims worrying about women exposing their arms or legs while clad in a Burqa.
Fair enough man. I grew up in change rooms playing sports. It really means no never mind to me. Just providing some anecdotal info.
 

Humphrey Bogart

Moderator
Staff member
Directing Staff
Subscriber
Reaction score
473
Points
1,010
Fair enough man. I grew up in change rooms playing sports. It really means no never mind to me. Just providing some anecdotal info.
I agree and I wasn't trying to go at you specifically. I am just frustrated at the amount of contradictory information and direction coming from the organization lately.
 

captloadie

Sr. Member
Subscriber
Reaction score
35
Points
330
So these last comments from HB highlight the largest issue we have as an organization. "In an emergency situation" "we do this in the Army" "liberal feminism" etc. etc. And I'm not calling HB out for his views, I'm just using his comments as examples of why there is a problem with the organization. Like it or not, we are no longer a homogenous organization who all think that the whole is more important than the individual. Did anyone ask that female whether she wanted to share a foxhole with a male? Or ask the male if he was comfortable with the setup? What if some of the females in those Messes have been assaulted or preyed upon previously and are genuinely concerned about their safety or just their modesty? Like it or not, we no longer want an organization that forces individuals to give up their personal beliefs (within reason) when they sign on the dotted line.

As for who should fill the roles of these culture officers, I do think it should be a Jr NCM. And if COs and the Senior CoC can't find time to listen to what they have to say without having it filtered through multiple layers, new Command teams need to be put in place, because people aren't getting it. And if someone gets blindsided, too bad, that means someone in that CoC wasn't listening to their members or the members they serve.
 
Top