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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

daftandbarmy

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Honestly, I think this whole thing was a serious lack of judgment. If these guys had just planned a normal game on some course somewhere else this would still have have made the news I’m sure of it. But the fact that it seems like attempts were made to conceal it is what gives this story more legs.

A simple bbq at someone’s home might have sufficed but I doubt even that would have been seen in a good light (but at least it had a smaller chance of making the news).

Given the current climate I think these two have now had a career stoppage. Unfortunately the current climate does not give due process. But those two should have known better. There is a bounty on GOFOs. I doubt they were unaware of that and should have been extra cautious if not ridiculously cautious about anything they do.

when I was MCpl teaching on course, after all that SHARP training in the nineties I changed my habits with recruits. Not because I was doing anything wrong but because the perception might be viewed that way. Especially with female recruits. Where once I might have adjusted a beret or gently pushed an arm in tighter to the body to correct the position of attention before I stopped completely doing that and just telling them. Even then as young MCPl I knew that even if what I was doing was completely innocent it could be perceived the wrong way. So given the climate I was being extra diligent.

If a MCpl can figure that out why can’t two of our top generals?
agencylife advertisement GIF by MX Player
 

shawn5o

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Oh, I'd say around May/June (maybe July?) when the CAF blew the whistle on treatment in Long Term Care homes. That's not even a year ago.

Or when the CAF went to dig out Newfoundland during the last big snowstorm.
Or any OP LENTUS mission, really.
Or any Search and Rescue-related articles (mind you it's generally not national news, just local to the areas those squadrons operate).
Jesus

Doesn't anyone read full articles anymore. Those are the authors views
 

shawn5o

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Ok folks - I hope the links show up in this article from CBC

Navy commander apologizes for golfing with former chief of defence staff under military police investigation

Vice-Admiral Craig Baines says he fully accepts responsibility for his actions

Ashley Burke · CBC News · Posted: Jun 13, 2021 11:20 PM ET | Last Updated: 3 hours ago

The commander of the Royal Canadian Navy has publicly apologized for golfing with former top soldier, retired general Jonathan Vance, who is under a military police investigation over allegations of inappropriate behaviour with female subordinates.

Vice-Admiral Craig Baines issued a written statement Sunday night addressed to all military members and national defence public servants saying he was sorry for his conduct.

Baines confirmed he golfed with Vance and military's second-in-command, Lt.-Gen Mike Rouleau, on June 2 in Ottawa.

"I fully accept responsibility and accountability for not understanding how such a public display of support sends the wrong signal as to my commitment to lead in resolving our systemic cultural and misconduct issues," Baines wrote.

"For this, I sincerely apologize."
More at link above

I don't get it. If a person who claims he is innocent then why should he act like he's guilty or showing penance for alleged wrongdoing.

Or is this another farce as Vice-Admiral Mark Norman faced?
 

CBH99

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Boy am I ever late in replying.

Again the ink is there -

WTF???

Perhaps your browser doesn't show the link. I'm reposting it and it shows up on my browser -

Canada’s Military Has Become A Shambles

SPENCER FERNANDO APRIL 12, 2021

Decades of bipartisan neglect, and now a Liberal government simultaneously obsessed with political correctness and political cover-ups is betraying the once-proud legacy of the Canadian Armed Forces.

spencerfernando.com

Canada's Military Has Become A Shambles

Decades of bipartisan neglect, and now a Liberal government simultaneously obsessed with political correctness and political cover-ups is betraying the once-proud legacy of the Canadian Armed Forces. Nobody likes to say this about the Canadian Armed Forces, but the sad reality is that it has...
spencerfernando.com
spencerfernando.com


Nobody likes to say this about the Canadian Armed Forces, but the sad reality is that it has become a shambles.
I wouldn’t go that far.

But morale is down, senior leadership is lacking in almost all meaningful ways, our MND is performing about as well as someone else without a military background/deployment experience would be, and our PM seems to actually pursue ideas which harm our national interests.

It is easy to pile on the bandwagon during times like these. Especially when these times are a result of nonsense that shouldn’t even have happened. (Again, with the exception of a few things, we don’t know the details.)


But let’s look to the positive.

- A large training mission in Iraq. Some Iraqi troops may have committed war crimes prior to receiving training from Canadian Forces.

Other than noting these incidents when members become aware & reporting them up, there isn’t much we can do. It is up to their military leadership, laws, and courts to handle it from there.

Our job is to ensure they understand the real consequences of those crimes, so they don’t continue to happen in the future. Our job can’t be to go back in time and prevent things that happened when we weren’t there.

After completing their training from us, they should be far more professional and competent soldiers. That’s the goal.


- An active (or was) SOF component in Iraq that was very effective at killing ISIS. Guys who very much commit war crimes.


- A leadership position of a multi-national brigade in Latvia. Great experience in commanding allied forces all bringing different kit to the party.

- An effective training operation in the Ukraine.


- All of the above while providing plenty of troops to an annual Operation Lentus, and over 1000 personnel to assist Ontario senior homes. Our members did an AMAZING job and immediately shamed several LTCs with their skills and competency.

When the missions are looked at together, our tempo hasn’t slowed down all that much.


There are good solid things happening. But the media does tend to focus on the negative - and there very much is some - and I suppose that’s fair enough if the information is accurate.



The main challenge the CAF seems to be having now isn’t a lack of money, it’s a lack of direction from the government and a lack of leadership to push the organization forwards.

- The government is too busy getting in its own way. We can’t buy the kit we want because we (Canada) have introduced too many rules to our own procurement. We have the power to eliminate some of our own self created rules, but...

- Senior staff - It’s common sense 101, don’t f**k your co workers. Especially if you are married.

And if you are going to say stupid things that clearly fall within the realm of misconduct, don’t do it over email. (or just be professional leaders and don’t say it period.)

- Also senior leadership, sort out the basics. Fast and easy, just do it. We have more money coming in over the last few years than we have in ages - call who needs to be called, and fix stupid problems. (Example - buy some dang flight suits!)


We aren’t in shambles. We are with a group of senior managers who don’t seem interested in leading, and that causes a very noticeable affect on the landscape.
 

shawn5o

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I wouldn’t go that far.

But morale is down, senior leadership is lacking in almost all meaningful ways, our MND is performing about as well as someone else without a military background/deployment experience would be, and our PM seems to actually pursue ideas which harm our national interests.

It is easy to pile on the bandwagon during times like these. Especially when these times are a result of nonsense that shouldn’t even have happened. (Again, with the exception of a few things, we don’t know the details.)


But let’s look to the positive.

- A large training mission in Iraq. Some Iraqi troops may have committed war crimes prior to receiving training from Canadian Forces.

Other than noting these incidents when members become aware & reporting them up, there isn’t much we can do. It is up to their military leadership, laws, and courts to handle it from there.

Our job is to ensure they understand the real consequences of those crimes, so they don’t continue to happen in the future. Our job can’t be to go back in time and prevent things that happened when we weren’t there.

After completing their training from us, they should be far more professional and competent soldiers. That’s the goal.


- An active (or was) SOF component in Iraq that was very effective at killing ISIS. Guys who very much commit war crimes.


- A leadership position of a multi-national brigade in Latvia. Great experience in commanding allied forces all bringing different kit to the party.

- An effective training operation in the Ukraine.


- All of the above while providing plenty of troops to an annual Operation Lentus, and over 1000 personnel to assist Ontario senior homes. Our members did an AMAZING job and immediately shamed several LTCs with their skills and competency.

When the missions are looked at together, our tempo hasn’t slowed down all that much.


There are good solid things happening. But the media does tend to focus on the negative - and there very much is some - and I suppose that’s fair enough if the information is accurate.



The main challenge the CAF seems to be having now isn’t a lack of money, it’s a lack of direction from the government and a lack of leadership to push the organization forwards.

- The government is too busy getting in its own way. We can’t buy the kit we want because we (Canada) have introduced too many rules to our own procurement. We have the power to eliminate some of our own self created rules, but...

- Senior staff - It’s common sense 101, don’t f**k your co workers. Especially if you are married.

And if you are going to say stupid things that clearly fall within the realm of misconduct, don’t do it over email. (or just be professional leaders and don’t say it period.)

- Also senior leadership, sort out the basics. Fast and easy, just do it. We have more money coming in over the last few years than we have in ages - call who needs to be called, and fix stupid problems. (Example - buy some dang flight suits!)


We aren’t in shambles. We are with a group of senior managers who don’t seem interested in leading, and that causes a very noticeable affect on the landscape.
Good points
Thanks CBH99
 

rmc_wannabe

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"Show me your friends and I will show you yourself.."

I said this elsewhere is similar terms, but this is part of what we need to change in our culture.

People like to tout the "well he hasn't been charged or convicted, so its just 3 dudes golfing...who cares?" bit. So freaking what? You don't need to be charged, tried, and convicted to have your character called into question. You don't need a conviction to have your reputation torn to tatters. The damage is already done. What's more, we tell our most junior NCMs to watch out for "dependas, base bunnies, shack rats, and car salesmen" based off of stereotypes and reputation. Why? because these are shady people of poor character who don't have their best interests in mind

When I was a kid, my parents told me to be mindful of the company I keep, as it reflects on my own credibility and reputation. I wasn't allowed to hang out with Timmy down the street because he was known in the community as being a troublemaker. I have ended friendships because the behaviour that person was exhibiting was something I couldn't abide. I didn't want to be associated with that kind of person. I don't think we need to have someone convicted of an offense to know that they're of poor judgement or character or both.

MR and VAdm Baines should have know the optics of this were going to blow up in their face. What's right and what looks to be right are 2 different things. 3 dudes golfing is nothing unusual; 3 GOFOs kicking pers off a course to try and limit exposure, one of said GOFOs being under investigation, by an organization that falls under another GOFO, is quite peculiar and will draw suspicion.
 

Loachman

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our MND is performing about as well as someone else without a military background/deployment experience would be

The absolute best MND in my time was Perrin Beatty in the late 1980s. No military experience whatsoever, but extremely intelligent, enthusiastic, motivated, and willing to listen. He was over to visit us in Lahr twice while working on his White Paper, and came to the Mess for Happy Hour on two Friday nights. He even mentioned the Junior Officers with whom he'd spoken on both occasions in the forward of his White Paper, and gave us credit for our input. He would aske a question, mull it over for a few seconds, and then ask a well-thought-out supplementary question, demonstrating quite clearly that he had absorbed the previous answer. We were all most impressed.

The second-best MND in my time was Peter MacKay, who genuinely seemed to care.

The current MND does not come anywhere near close.

Several other MNDs with prior service also disappointed.
 

brihard

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Damn. Rouleau’s statement is something. Exactly what I would expect and hope for from him.

Vice-Admiral Baines’ participation was surely predicated on my attending therefore I would ask that only I be held accountable. As VCDS, and with the full knowledge and consent of the A/CDS, I also maintain communications with many General and Flag Officers (who wish so) because I am concerned with their well-being. These officers include some who are under investigation and others who are not, but as people who have committed their lives to the service of Canada, they have earned our duty of care.
 
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